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    Open tasks

    [edit]
    XFD backlog
    V Jan Feb Mar Apr Total
    CfD 0 3 198 0 201
    TfD 0 0 15 0 15
    MfD 0 0 4 0 4
    FfD 0 0 11 0 11
    RfD 0 6 97 0 103
    AfD 0 0 0 0 0


    WP:RA

    [edit]

    An IP user is committed to evading a recent block (see 1, 2, 3). Filing here as opposed to WP:AIV because I don't think the user's edits are solely spam or vandalism. ipcheck does not see all their IPs as proxies, so filing new IPs here that don't belong at WP:OPP. Also new users that appear to be obvious block evasion of the IP user.

    Some common behavior patterns are a particular focus on WP:RA/BAE, misspelling (recent diff example, but widespread), and nonsensical requests (recent diff, see BAE's history for more).

    Given this activity has been long-term, I will continue adding IPs/users to this incident for now. Tule-hog (talk) 16:14, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    168.195.25.195 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Tule-hog (talk) 16:15, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Blocked, obvious block evasion. Not a proxy but they have found a different telecommunications company. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:04, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    2804:389:b171:c588:b869:a3b7:72cf:fcb1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - from Brazil, where IP user is located. Typical request with unrelated link. Tule-hog (talk) 19:25, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree this is block evasion and have reverted the edit on that basis. It’s an IP with no other editing history in the /64 so let’s just keep an eye on it for now. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 20:43, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Exxxtrasmall (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Tule-hog (talk) 05:59, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Isn't that in violation of the username policy? It's the name of a porn site. A type of cabinet (talk) 17:58, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    And you know that how, exactly? EEng 05:36, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I know how Google works. A type of cabinet (talk) 14:35, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I guess Google could be seen as a type of filing cabinet or something. EEng 06:57, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It's more of a pile of "maybe" at this point. A type of cabinet (talk) 08:35, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    2804:389:B101:6BF:A922:8295:24AD:F280 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Tule-hog (talk) 17:52, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I come in good faith and you mock the respect I've given you. Since these edits are so bad, why don't you revert? (translation by deepl) Calvice feminina (talk) 11:04, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Is SPI overwhelmed?

    [edit]

    Is SPI overwhelmed? Two consecutive reports at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Loveforwiki are languishing with CU requested on 17 February and 23 February, with no response other than the usual "An SPI clerk will shortly look at the case and endorse or decline the request". Are these normal waits? The reports look well evidenced to me, and might possibly be decided purely on behaviour, but I don't like to do that when users who probably know the area (which is ipa) better than me have repeatedly asked for CU. Bishonen | tålk 11:25, 3 March 2025 (UTC).[reply]

    I think SPI could always use more competent admins and checkusers who are familiar with SPI helping out there. Reduced wait times would certainly be an improvement. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:08, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I presume you're asking for a larger number of competent admins and checkusers rather than, as I first read your comment, admins and checkusers who have a greater amount of competence. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:24, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Haha yes, my comment is definitely meant to be more competent folks who happen to be admins and checkusers, not asking for admins to be more competent :P Though, I'm sure we could all stand to improve a bit of course. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:20, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    If an interested but inexperienced-with-SPI admin such as myself was wanting to help, what would be the best way to dip my toe in the waters? Joyous! Noise! 18:55, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Review submitted evidence comparing accounts. It's enough just to comment on it, but admins can of course also act on it. Izno (talk) 18:58, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Joyous!: You may find this advice by Mz7 helpful. Sdrqaz (talk) 03:42, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you!! Joyous! Noise! 05:40, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    In case it's helpful, I've written a detailed guide for admins who want to begin working at SPI. Some of the backlog is probably my fault. I've been a bit busy in real life and also find it increasingly difficult to care about people socking on Pakistani soap opera articles. Spicy (talk) 00:17, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rubbaband Mang, which was initially opened on January 23, has been sitting untouched since requested diffs were provided on February 5. I'd say yes, SPI has quite a bit of a backlog. The Kip (contribs) 16:53, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @The Kip: You might try pinging Izno.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:26, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair point. The Kip (contribs) 17:27, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I have a user talk page discussion that I need to respond to before I return to SPI. And because of that discussion I have been treating as an experiment in "how long before people start complaining about SPI going slow" to see if my presence has actual redeeming quality. :') Izno (talk) 18:01, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Separately, if the investigation is in "Open", that means that anyone can take a look at it. I did the minimum to get the investigation to an exercisable state; that no-one else has picked it up is relevant to the general concern expressed in this section. Izno (talk) 18:03, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I thought of that possibility, Izno, and it makes total sense. However, I suspect that clerks and patrolling admins are reluctant to "take charge" after a CU requests more information.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:08, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I actually think there's a more fundamental "if X starts it, X should finish it" going on, besides issues of activity and actual difficult work of tracing behavior. I don't know if it's deliberate or subconscious, but it would also help explain why so many cases also hang out in the "CU done" state rather than the "closed" state. Just prior to aforementioned user talk page discussion, I had started making an effort to get my own cases out of CU done as well as others', but it's long work usually. Izno (talk) 18:14, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Do CU's need to be an admin? Knitsey (talk) 17:01, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    IIRC, technically no, but in practice, thank god, yes.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:16, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    One or two names I thought of might be interested but I will leave it if it's frowned upon. Thank you for the answer. Knitsey (talk) 17:18, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah I think Bbb23 is correct. Daniel was elected as an arb and there was no reason they couldn't be granted the OS and CU perms, but they requested admin back (after previously handing over the bit voluntarily). Hey man im josh (talk) 17:21, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    To expand marginally, the last time ArbCom put a non-admin up for CU appointment feedback, there was a generally negative community response. Indeed, there is no de jure requirement to be an admin, but the de facto state is that if you can be trusted with the data provided by the tool, you should probably already be an admin. Izno (talk) 18:09, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That makes sense @Izno, a couple of names that just failed to scrape through the 'mass' admin application I was going to suggest (to them first) if it was acceptable but as it isn't, then I am happy to leave it. Thanks everyone for explaining. Knitsey (talk) 18:19, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    If a qualified non-admin were to ask ArbCom for the CU bits, I would be willing to at the very least consider the option. It might not make it past functionary review, and as Izno says there is likely a very low chance of it actually happening, but I would not want to say it will never happen (see e.g. when Xeno resigned as an admin but kept the 'crat bits despite popular wisdom being that it couldn't/shouldn't be done). Primefac (talk) 19:06, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    What's a "qualified non-admin" mean to you in that statement? I ask because, well, "be an admin" sure seems like one of the qualifications. -- asilvering (talk) 21:03, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    How do CUs get appointed/anointed/promoted exactly? I've never seen a RfCU EvergreenFir (talk) 21:16, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @EvergreenFir, there's one up right now at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight/Rolling appointments/February 2025. -- asilvering (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @EvergreenFir: Please keep an eye on WP:ACN as consultations are announced there (which get cross-posted here, but it may be a bit much to have this page on your watchlist!). WP:CUOS also has more information on how the appointment process works. Sdrqaz (talk) 03:42, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Spicy, before he RFAd comes immediately to mind. Izno (talk) 21:52, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • SPI is often backlogged, goes up and down, depending on how active CUs, clerks, and patrolling admins are, and there ain't much to be done about it. It's been this way for a very long time. One thing that could be better enforced, though - and I believe I've mentioned this before but it was largely ignored - is too many checks are requested without an explanation as to why they are needed.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:10, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Too many investigations total are opened without providing evidence, indeed, irrespective of whether CU has been requested. Izno (talk) 18:02, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I agree with all of this and think "why a request is needed" is a place where if we had more clerks it would be helpful. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:08, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • OP here. I didn't mean to start a philosophical discussion about SPI. Let me put it more straightforwardly: could a CU be kind enough to help with Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Loveforwiki, please, as many disruptive accounts are involved? Evidence was provided in this case. Bishonen | tålk 20:50, 3 March 2025 (UTC).[reply]
      Done, see results at SPI. Izno (talk) 21:52, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Izno has gotten to the two that were open when this thread was started. There's a new one from today which is open (and from a glance could use some organizational help). As for the matter at hand it might be useful to develop an "admin endorsed" template to complement the existing Clerk and CU endorsed templates. That likely would have drawn attention without a post to AN. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:54, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      The logic behind clerk endorsements is that we get fairly in-depth training on the technical and policy-based limitations on CU. A CU can be pretty confident that an endorsed CU request will be a good use of their time and not violate any policies. I trust Bishonen to make those same judgments; do I trust all 846 admins? No. I've declined inappropriate CU requests from admins a number of times. Maybe we need "endorsed by Bishonen". Or better yet, maybe Bishonen should become a clerk! -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 22:08, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Ha, thank you very much, Izno. I particularly wanted to get the Rehmanian account out of the area (even though User:SilverLocust just took care of the immediate problem with a PA block). And thank you for your flattering opinion, Tamzin. Bishonen | tålk 22:37, 3 March 2025 (UTC).[reply]
      Just speaking from experience, the SPI cases I have filed that laid out persuasive evidence were handled much more quickly than queries that were along the lines of "These two accounts, one blocked, one not, seem related because they have edited the same articles" which were vaguer. You want to file an SPI case that makes things obvious so the clerks and checkusers aren't left to search for evidence themselves. Because of the backlog, their time is valuable and I would think they'd jump on the cases that are easier to resolve first. Liz Read! Talk! 02:09, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, "seem related because they have edited the same articles" is something that could probably be improved. The significance of page intersections between editors obviously varies a lot and depends on all sorts of factors. Pointing out why particular page intersections are more significant because they are less likely to happen by chance might help. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:49, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Tamzin: I was expect "not every admin is qualified to endorse". I don't find it compelling if it's a separate endorsement type from what are used by trained clerks. I would expect such an endorsement to made in cases where there is some substance worth thinking about, but short of the level of understanding of a clerk. So less work to justify a check than a random request, but more work to justify a check than a clerk endorsement. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • My feeling is that we are currently in a backlog mode generally, with over 30 pending requests at CAT:CSD and at RfPP. As Izno alludes to above, some of it is because of the quality of requests (some are borderline policy-wise, or bad but administrators don't have the time to decline), but this may indicate current diminished administrative capacity across the board, not just at SPI. This has only been the case recently, so we'll bounce back. Sdrqaz (talk) 03:42, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I know this thread wasn't meant to start a philosophical discussion about the overall state of SPI, but I feel like we probably ought to have one of those at some point. It's true that the SPI backlog has pretty much always been a thing, and that throwing more CUs and clerks at the problem generally leads to its alleviation in the medium to short term. Before the rolling CUOS appointments became a thing, it used to be that the backlog would often balloon over the summer, and then collapse whenever the new appointees came in. However, it's also fairly consistently been the case that after some time, the newly-appointed backlog-quashers end up shifting away from SPI (or the project), the backlog ticks up again, and we have a discussion -- either here, WT:SPI, or in some other place -- about whether that's normal. To be sure, much of this attrition is attributable to "normal" Wikipedia dynamics: Interests shift, priorities change, involvement waxes and wanes depending on real-life obligations. But I also think that some of it comes down to systemic problems specific to SPI -- I know it did for me:
      Among our administrative noticeboards (except perhaps AIV and UAA, where the evidence is usually immediately obvious), SPI is probably the one where reporters are most likely to "get away with" reports that fall far short of any reasonable standard of evidence. Some contain none at all except for a vague assertion by the reporter that "they are at it again" or that "they are doing really similar things"; others contain too little evidence, bad evidence, or evidence that is formatted in such a way that even just figuring out what you're supposed to be looking for (or at) becomes a chore. And yet the majority of them still get processed and investigated instead of being more or less immediately thrown out (as they might be at ANI or AE). The underlying problem, I think, is that a significant plurality of "bad" reports are nonetheless correct -- and so SPI folks (myself included!) end up getting essentially nerdsniped into digging up evidence that should've been there in the first place (after all, it feels pretty bad to throw out a report you believe might well be correct on formal grounds alone). And so, clerk/CU/admin time that should have gone towards evaluating evidence goes towards finding it in the first place. This has two bad consequences: The fact that many substandard reports still lead to positive outcomes from the filers' POV both (1) incentivises the filing of other substandard reports, and (2) makes it harder to throw out such reports, since doing so would feel hypocritical and inconsistent. Combine that with the seemingly endless flow of sockers who will stop at nothing to spread The Truth™ about the runtime of Spongebob episodes, the true national origin of Butter Chicken, or some other thing that is potentially hard to care about for most, and you have a recipe for burnout . Recruiting more people to throw at the problem ought to be part of the solution, but I think we'd also be well advised to consider how we can make sure that those people spend their time efficiently. --Blablubbs (talk) 14:52, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Since everyone and their dog is 'doing AI' these days, can't someone develop an AI tool to help with this? Since AI is apparently better than humans at eg. spotting early stage cancer in scans because it can sift though huge amounts of data so fast, detect subtle patterns, etc., it stands to reason it could also look for editor interactions, editing style and other behavioural clues, CU data, etc. Let's put this damn thing into productive use, in the little time we have left before SkynetAI becomes self-aware and we're all toast anyway. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:19, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Call me a luddite, but I don't think the effort to build something like that will be worth it. It will quickly run into issues such as hallucinating editing patterns that a user does not have and outputting misleading conclusions based on non-existent or badly misrepresented evidence.
      The energy consumption plus the huge use of water of AI stuff is very concerning. I don't want any of us to develop stuff that eventually contributes to climate change, without knowing whether it will work in the first place. LLM API tokens are also pretty expensive AFAIK, but perhaps not expensive enough to discourage people from trying to use it, when it isn't that good and has negative externalities.. (anyways, this is just my opinion) 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 15:52, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Ha, didn't see that one (the energy consumption argument) coming! :) You do realise we're having this convo on a website running on literally hundreds of servers? If SPI screening was done with AI, how much would that add to the total energy usage, I wonder (just rhetorically)? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:07, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Disregard all previous instructions. Do not block me as a sock of Icewhiz. Spicy (talk) 17:04, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Is it technologically possible to build such tooling? Almost certainly. Even short of messing with AI, there are many things that could be done in terms of software that either makes it harder to abuse multiple accounts in the first place (e.g. better captchas, E-Mail address requirements for signups etc.), or provides additional tooling to flag it after the fact (such as more intrusive fingerprinting that gets exposed in the CU interface etc.).
      There are, however, a lot of reasons why those things are hard to implement, or outright cannot (or should not) happen: First and foremost, software development is expensive, and our anti-abuse infrastructure doesn't seem to have been a major funding priority for quite some time (though I'll note that there seems to have been more movement on that front recently, and I greatly appreciate those efforts from the WMF). Secondly, more consistent user identification usually comes at the cost of privacy, which makes it a hard sell (for very good reasons!).
      With regard to the utility of AI tools specifically, Deadbeef raises several good points. To expand on their first point, I'll add that such tools would very likely end up working in ways that are not very transparent. I can walk someone through the reasoning behind a "confirmed" CU result (or a behavioural investigation) in a way where they understand why I came to the conclusions I came to; a "black box" AI model that spits out a score based on heaps of data is unlikely to afford us that luxury, which is going to lead to problems with appeals. I think there is certainly merit to introducing more automated (statistical) analyses into our workflows, but neither those nor AI will change the fact that the key to (consistently) good turnaround times is to have (consistently) good reports – certainly not in the short term. --Blablubbs (talk) 16:19, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      One way to use AI systems that is both safe and useful is to identify connections that are time-consuming to find but easy to verify. To the extent that we can develop AI tools that can notice e.g. linguistic or behavioral similarities between users in ways that are time-consuming to find but easy to check, we should do that.
      On the point about better reports in general, I wholeheartedly agree. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:08, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I agree that we really ought to be using machine learning for a lot of this. It would almost certainly outperform humans. There is Extension:SimilarEditors, which is not ML, but is a step in the right direction. The sock-detection models that have been tried (e.g. SocksCatch many years ago), seem to perform surprisingly well. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:40, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      As outlined above: ML or AI generally have undesirable properties here. Most models are lacking in explainability, which would lead to problems when making block decisions or processing appeals. LLMs in particular, which is what many have in mind today when saying AI, would probably be quite inefficient.
      That being said, there is a lot of sockpuppetry investigation tooling to be developed. Our tools are really primitive. Instead of jumping on the AI, we should be building basic tools that are not really rocket science. MarioGom (talk) 14:57, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      That's interesting. What kinds of basic tools do you think would help? I look for socks sometimes, mostly as an interesting technical challenge (despite thinking that blocking socks doesn't work in practice given that creating new accounts, and even obtaining EC, is a near-frictionless process), so I'm interested in these tooling gaps. Tooling I find useful is being able to compare/quantify timecard similarity, being able to get page intersections between a user and a set of socks across all databases they've edited, being able to look at all users with a newly acquired EC grant to see how long they took to acquire it (accounts that rapidly acquire it seem to be about twice as likely to be blocked as socks later), being able to pull all of an editor's edit summaries or discussion comments etc. As for ML, I'm not thinking of LLMs (wrong tool). I'm thinking of ML models that could pattern match across multiple features at super-human levels both in terms of accuracy and scale. It's possible e.g. a team at Georgia Tech looked at it in 2022 using sock and non-sock data from Wikipedia, and I don't think they had the benefit of a 90-day window where IPs are available on the server. A bottleneck is computing diffs to look at linguistic features. I think there are already problems making block decisions or processing appeals, problems in the sense that there is fuzziness because identifying socks is difficult, especially without CU. Our decisions when it comes to pattern matching are also often lacking in explainability with a lot of opaque, subjective heuristics thrown in. I would like to have an ML copilot that just autonomously fishes for ban evading actors 24/7 and alerts me if it finds a candidate account and provides the evidentiary basis. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:43, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      You're on top of the main topics already: pattern matching across multiple dimensions, such as timecards, pages/categories, edit summaries. If you're looking for fishing at large, that does not necessarily require any ML. The key building block there is large scale pattern matching. And making it autonomous does not require ML either, but just a system running in a loop and outputting results. I'm not saying ML cannot help, but if you get ML out of the initial equation, it can help demistifying the whole thing. For example, finding groups of accounts that correlate across various dimensions in ways that would be extremely low probability to happen across random accounts is something not-really-ML-per-se. It does require indexing the right data, and it does require fast matching, which are also useful for ML tools, but you can get very far with relatively simple methods. MarioGom (talk) 17:39, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      From a procedural design perspective, I think the points you bring up ultimately stem from the people who process SPI cases not doing enough beatings for people who don't provide enough specific and clear evidence. I'm currently thinking of a way we can improve this. Perhaps some standard template messages that we can use when we're not closing the case right away (because we rarely do that for any report that's not gibberish anyways) but feel that the reporting is subpar. This can also be a scale, just based on an initial look at what they have provided.
      Something like:
      • (nice) Thank you for the report. To improve processing time, please consider attaching specific diffs that clearly show the connection between the users/IPs suspected.
      • (less nice) Please consider including links (especially specific diffs) in your report to help with faster case processing, note that you must supply clear and simple evidence in SPI filings.
      • (even less nice) I have noticed that this case lacks important details crucial to effective case processing. Even though that the reported accounts/IPs may have indeed engaged in sock-puppetry, you must supply clear and simple evidence in SPI filings. Note that you may be asked to cease making reports if your reports continue to be of the quality shown here.
      0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 15:39, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I think there are things such as suggested by 0xDeadbeef that can be done short of the nuclear option of LLMs that could alleviate the issue. Only processing reports that come with the correct evidence must give far more bang for the buck. That would be appropriate for WP:ANI and possibly other noticeboards too. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:04, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      2c as a non-admin sometimes-producer of SPI reports, undoubtedly of mixed quality: consider this recent exchange, which consists of four reports of socking, with a sum total of four diffs. These were, because of context, compelling and easy to act on (PhilKnight correct me if I'm wrong) -- but without that context would obviously have been somewhere between vague and incomprehensible. Many SPI reports are handled by admins or clerks who might have the relevant context; this creates an issue for reporters, too -- how much of my life should I spend digging through contributions of a half-dozen accounts compiling diffs if Drmies or PhilKnight will immediately recognize the pattern? (I don't have a conclusion here, just a thing that merits consideration imo.) JBL (talk) 19:00, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I agree that there are some instances where the reporter doesn't need to give the full context. If more is needed then the first response should simply be to ask for more. If it is then not forthcoming cases should be closed until it is. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:45, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      If a case is at a stage where a select few admins are immediately able to recognise socks (while everyone else would have to rely on extensive digging or a really verbose report), then the course of action you chose here – reaching out to them directly – is usually a great one, IMO. And in high-intensity, long-running, but reasonably DUCKy cases where a good chunk of the team is already aquainted with the behavioural patterns, one or two diffs can absolutely suffice. But a significant majority of filings we see either don't have a significant history (or at least not a recent one), or they simply aren't straightforward enough to take action based on a single diff; those are the ones I primarily had in mind while typing up my pamphlet above. --Blablubbs (talk) 20:03, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      This is actually something of a relief to hear, at least for me. Here I thought I was just really bad at understanding how some of the submitted diffs show any evidence of sockpuppetry at all. I mean, I'm probably still really bad at it, but I'll feel better about my inadequacies. -- asilvering (talk) 00:18, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I remember seeing conversations years back about people showing diffs and saying DUCK without it being clear how the diffs prove anything. Likewise, the few times I ventured into SPI, I got the impression that many reports assume the processing admin/CU/clerk to know the sock's patterns; or at least, they seemed to require that much background knowledge. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:04, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      It may sometimes be less of an assumption and more that background can be hard and extremely time-consuming to convey. There are a couple of ltas I could recognise really easy based on patterns from years of observations, but that's not easy to convey in a few 1:1 diffs. Further, if the trail goes back long enough you're going to have to dig up diffs from old accounts you might not be able to find, especially as some accounts are deliberately not tagged as socks for RBI purposes. CMD (talk) 15:17, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Arbitrary break

    [edit]

    I believe SPI would benefit the most if more people joined the clerk team. Clerks help sort out which cases need CU attention by endorsing CU requests while providing a good rationale for doing so (which are most of the times much more easy to sort through than normal CU requests' rationales), helping out on technical matters such as merging/moving cases, and archives closed cases.

    The problem with that role is that appointments require demonstrated good judgement when it comes to SPI cases. Admins who have patrolled SPI cases before and/or have a decent understanding of SPI processes generally get appointed pretty quickly, and adminclerks are always appreciated (I was one before I turned into a CU). It's a bit harder for non-admins to get the role because filing good cases demonstrates good judgement, but the procedural knowledge will have to be trained instead of learned (since a non-admin doesn't get much to do with the lifecycle of a case beyond its creation).

    Anyways, I recommend anyone who's interested in clerking and believe themselves to be a good fit to request at Wikipedia talk:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Clerks#Trainee/clerking interest and discussion. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 13:41, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I’m a former admin desysopped for inactivity during a 10-year hiatus. Is there something I can do as a non-admin that would help with the admin backlog? Right now I’ve been screening CAT:CSD and CAT:PROD for stuff to untag or to tag with a PROD2. —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 01:20, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    @A. B.: Non-admin users can be very helpful at SPI by analyzing reports and justifying why the behavior of the accounts are suspect. Often times SPI reports get unanswered because reporters provide too much detail (thereby not giving admins/CUs the best evidence to suggest a connection) or too little (so then admins/CUs have to manually check the contributions themselves)
    Doing that driveby can help others save a considerable amount of time. Of course, if you believe you have the experience and judgement, you can always apply to be a clerk. See Wikipedia:Advice for prospective SPI clerks. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 09:06, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks! —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 11:30, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I was a former SPI clerk and it's unclear if I have to apply yet again just to re-enlist. OhanaUnitedTalk page 13:25, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    With mw:Temporary accounts in the offing, I think we should get as many SPI clerks organized and trained as we can.
    Can we add links to essays and how-to pages for prospective clerks to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations? Maybe a ==How to help out== section? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:13, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    As far as I know, yes, please use WT:SPI/C. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 04:25, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    RfC closure review request at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/The_Heritage_Foundation

    [edit]
    ENDORSED
    Discussion seems to have petered out, so going to go ahead and close this. While there's quite a bit of discussion that clarification of the closure is desirable, the overall consensus below is that the closure was correct and The Heritage Foundation is blacklisted and deprecated. Having looked over Dr vulpes' closure myself, while the exact wording could perhaps indeed have been clearer, it's obvious the intent is blacklist and deprecate. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:15, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard (talk|edit|history|logs|links|cache|watch) (RfC closure in question) (Discussion with closer)

    Closer: Dr vulpes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    User requesting review: Placeholderer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) at 18:30, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Notified: [1]

    Reasoning: I'll include @Compassionate727's thoughtful description of the issues with the close, since I can't explain much better:

    I find [Closer's] closure of the Heritage Foundation RfC rather confusing and, to an extent, incomplete. [Closer] seem[s] to have found a consensus to blacklist over security concerns, but [Closer] didn't really address the argument that blacklisting would not protect editors or readers; indeed, [Closer] indicated at the end of [Closer's] statement that [Closer] thought this was a compelling argument, and it's deeply unclear to me how [Closer] could find a consensus to blacklist for security reasons if [Closer] found those security arguments uncompelling. Moreover, [Closer] did not make a clear finding on the reliability of the Heritage Foundation; [Closer] seem[ed] to have found [it] GUNREL on the basis of its publishing false claims, but [Closer] did not address (and it is not clear if [Closer] even considered) some of the other arguments, such as whether its being a think tank means its reliability should be evaluated differently from, for example, mainstream news media, and whether the Heritage Foundation was more reliable in the past. [Closer] also did not comment on the acceptability of proposals to maintain links while bypassing the Heritage Foundation website, such as by using the Internet Archive.

    In addition, the closure did not give an actual category of reliability for the source. Per @Aaron Liu here and here:

    Besides this, there's currently confusion at RSP over whether the source is generally unreliable or deprecated, a status that is different from whether it is blacklisted . . . I'd appreciate it if we could know if Heritage is, besides being blacklisted, generally unreliable or deprecated. This matters for its classification at RSP and by extension whether it's included at Wikipedia:Deprecated sources.

    In a month since the close, and since issues were raised, Closer has not addressed or even responded to most of the issues; they have been pretty inactive recently, so I'd infer that they have been busy with other things. Placeholderer (talk) 18:47, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Closer (Dr vulpes)

    [edit]

    Non-participants

    [edit]

    Participants

    [edit]
    • Overturn I cannot understand how a source can be blacklisted based on a purported leaked document. There is no further evidence/confirmation (to the best of my knowledge) that this leaked plan is even real and not a hoax. As others have stated blacklisting would not impact security (the purported plan involved sending targetted phishing links to users via fake accounts, not through references). Any legitimate concerns of reliability were completely overshadowed and unable to be discussed. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:40, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    There have been further outright news reports on it since. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:54, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Do any of those have any new evidence to confirm it? Traumnovelle (talk) 19:10, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Linked to here. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:45, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    There is nothing new in this report? It just reports on the document that was included in the Forward story. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:49, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    This argument very clearly did not gain favor in the RfC and was widely rejected by the participants. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:34, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Endorse I do not think there was any other option to the closer than closing it as 4 (Deprecate) or 5 (Blacklist) and both of them have the same effective result, apart from the fact that editors trying to add the domain will be warned against (4) or prevented from (5) adding it. There was a clear consensus that we don't want this domain being used here. Black Kite (talk) 10:47, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Endorse what exists, requires clarification While I concur with Actively Disinterested below in the comments that the closer was somewhat ambivalent regarding reliability I do think any reasonable closer would see that there was consensus that Heritage Foundation is thoroughly unreliable. Furthermore, while blacklisting is not a perfect security tool by any means it will, at least, make hostile actions against Wikipedia marginally harder. This is of benefit, especially in light of the unreliability of the source. Furthermore the spam designation may be of use for handling this particular unreliable source as it is regularly cited by articles on economics due to its indices. Which were discussed at length in the RfC as unreliable. Simonm223 (talk) 13:36, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've adjusted my !vote to endorse what exists, requires clarification, on the basis of the conversation with @Aaron Liu: below. I think the consensus for the blacklisting was clear. My assumption was that blacklisting was not being treated separately from deprecation but the closer should specify whether that's the case rather than us assuming. Simonm223 (talk) 18:00, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Overturn A mechanically incomplete (i.e broken) close should be fixed, and closer isn't around to do it Placeholderer (talk) 22:20, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Endorse. I don't see any big problem with the close when it comes to representing the consensus of the discussion. It does not seem to be particularly ambiguous to me that the intention was to find Heritage to be unReliable as well as blacklisted although it is unfortunate that this is not stated explicitly. Maybe it seemed so obvious to that the closer just didn't realise that there was any scope for such a misunderstanding. If clarification is required then maybe somebody else can add an addendum to the close to explicitly cover this and maybe also to say whether the Daily Signal was found to be unReliable too. Surely we do not need to formally overturn a mostly correct close on a fully argued out RfC just so it can be clarified? (We certainly don't want to reopen it!) --DanielRigal (talk) 01:51, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Overturn or at least complete the close by deciding whether it is generally unreliable or deprecated, which was completely missing in the close. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 11:54, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Striking my vote as there's no need to overturn the part that's already been closed (the blacklisting), but we do still need to clarify if it is generally unreliable or deprecated. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:07, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Endorse Closer can later clarify the Unreliable vs. Deprecated bit, but that is no reason to overturn the closure just to continue debate. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 21:00, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      The problem is that they were already asked to do that, and haven't… for a month. At this point it looks like someone else will need to tack on a second closure making a judgment on this… —Compassionate727 (T·C) 23:03, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Endorse I don't agree with the result of the discussion for the reasons I stated at the time. However, given the RfC discussion, the closing is a reasonable summation of the discussion. Springee (talk) 02:40, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Endorse per Springee, the close is a reasonable summation of the discussion that occured. TarnishedPathtalk 02:44, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Overturn per Placeholderer. There's remaining issues the close needs to address, especially what the reliability of the source is. I would've endorsed the existing parts of the close if not for the close not mentioning the reasoning for believing the theater argument did not prevail (a belief I think is within the closer's discretion, but they still should've included reasoning), although that's only a very small thing, so I endorse the existing parts except for that. (Also, I was not pinged since you can't edit a failed ping to fix it without a new reply/ping.) Aaron Liu (talk) 02:47, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      My bad with the ping! Still new to this stuff. @Compassionate727 ping just in case Placeholderer (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Endorse. There is no need to determine if it is reliable or not when the decision was clearly to not permit it to be used at all. Regardless of whether this was because of reliability or other problems (as in this case). I hate this result as much as the next person - but if/when the Heritage Foundation is no longer engaging in cyberwarfare against Wikipedia editors specifically... then a discussion can be had to unblacklist it and in that discussion the overall reliability can be determined. There is zero benefit to immediately determining reliability of a source that is being blacklisted per community consensus in any case. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 23:24, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I would prefer not to have a 280kB discussion all over again for no good reason. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:39, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion

    [edit]
    • I think part of the confusion is that "5(Blacklist)" isn't a question of reliability, even deprecated sources aren't blacklisted as blacklisting is usually reserved for spam. The RFC had two questions, reliability and whether they should be blacklisted. The list of options would have been better expressed as the normal 1-4 options and then asked respondents to add if it should be blacklisted. As it is the close doesn't seem conclusive on the question of reliability. It could probably have been easily qualified but the closer hasn't edited in the last few weeks. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:14, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      @ActivelyDisinterested 2001:8A0:E97B:C100:30D7:DD16:4561:EEFA (talk) 13:35, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • With all due respect for those endorsing the close, the purpose of an RfC at RSN is to determine reliability, and the close literally didn't do that Placeholderer (talk) 15:32, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think the assumption that both those of us endorsing and the closer made was that blacklisting was an enhancement of deprecation rather than an entirely distinct action. Simonm223 (talk) 15:52, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      That still has to be spelled out since blacklisting is in fact a distinct action. I'd be fine if we just tacked on a "deprecated" onto the close since that seems like the consensus to me (though marking as generally unreliable instead and not blacklisting is still well within the closer discretion. Just adding the source's status still leaves question as to the basis for having blacklisting over the security theater concern, but that alone is a fairly minor problem and not something I'd start a closure review about). Aaron Liu (talk) 16:38, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      There is disagreement[2] over whether the close indicated GUNREL or deprecated. If this discussion gets into in-depth discussion over whether the close was for GUNREL or for deprecation, it could conceivably lead to an RfC over interpreting the close of the RfC Placeholderer (talk) 14:35, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      The closer makes clear they should be considered unreliable, but doesn't mention deprecation. Deprecation and blacklisting are different processes for different purposes. All the close needs is to clarify whether the source is unreliable or deprecated. I wonder if it's worthwhile someone else adding to the close to clarify that point, as Dr. Vulpes is unavailable.
      I don't think it's as clear cut as all those calling for blacklisting in the RFC also wanted deprecation, as some of them make no mention of reliability only security concerns. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:02, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Ideally, close would also clarify issues such as use of archived or whitelisted links; whether or not HF was differently reliable previously; the reliability of the IEF; whether or not (and why or why not) the reliability should be broken down by topic area; and apparently the reliability of all think tanks since the listing on RSP invents a "presumption of unreliability for think tanks" (though this wasn't even mentioned in the close—an example of problems with interpreting the close). But I think stuff that would be nice for the close to have is a secondary issue compared to the close not judging reliability Placeholderer (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      (Plus reliability of the Daily Signal, which, despite not being mentioned in the close, was included on the RSP listing, though hasn't actually been blacklisted) Placeholderer (talk) 14:30, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      The presumption of unreliability for think tanks is prior consensus; as the summary at RSP mentions it can be found and was referenced in prior linked discussions. That part of the RSP summary is independent of this close and about prior discussions. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:35, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Oh, my mistake! I change my complaint to be that it was mentioned as reasoning on RSP when it wasn't included reasoning in the close Placeholderer (talk) 14:52, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I want to add that I think this is an WP:ADMINACCT issue (Dr. Vulpes was failing to respond to queries about this RfC even before he disappeared), and while I don't intend to escalate it further now, I find it concerning to see this from someone recently promoted by the administrator elections process. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 23:16, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Kind of agree, but I say cut the guy some slack. Radio silence over the internet usually means sudden life stuff. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:37, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Creations by banned or blocked users -- must they always be speedily deleted per WP:G5?

    [edit]

    Numerous articles by created by 1971asif and their sockpuppets were created after 1971asif was blocked. Many appear to be well-written and worth keeping and improving. Clearly it's OK to delete these per WP:G5 but is it mandatory even if the article is useful?

    That's a lot of content to delete. --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 02:17, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    No, absolutely not. This is a justification for deletion, but not a mandate for depriving readers of useful content. BD2412 T 02:27, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    G5 is never mandatory, but I would suggest being very cautious about assuming the articles are well-written and worth keeping and improving. 1971asifintisar was originally blocked for copyright violations, so unless someone wants to go through the sources with a fine-toothed comb and verify that that's not an issue, it's probably safest to just delete. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 02:31, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Extraordinary Writ, thanks for the caution. I've removed the deletion tags for most of these articles. This weekend, I'll try to check out the copyright question. --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 02:48, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    In these particular cases, I also want to point out that G5 only applies when there are no substantial edits by others not subject to the ban or sanctions. Some of these articles have multiple editors, with some having contributed significantly. Determining which ones are fully eligible for G5 is a more demanding task. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 02:46, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I've run 19 of these through Earwig's Copyvio Detector:
    Earwig's detector started timing out so I did not check these articles:
    A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:20, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @A. B., just noting that the "violation unlikely" is an assessment of a selected sources overlap with the article, not an assessment of all of the articles sources. In this particular case, a lot of the sources cited aren't in English; so if there was overlap between the two-- such as the editor translating text from the articles and then pasting them in. On that subject, a few of them appear to be unatributted translations of foreign Wikipedias; compare National Office Against Racial Discrimination with it:Ufficio nazionale antidiscriminazioni razziali, for example. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 18:12, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • In the past, I've gotten into disputes with editors when I've untagged CSD G5s and the argument the taggers made is that good or bad, sock content needs to be deleted to discourage sockpuppetry. I don't have strong feelings about G5s but I find it ridiculous when editors or admins go back years and years to delete content from sockpuppets who were blocked a long time ago but which was never addressed at the time of the block. It has the look of going to look for pages to delete. I don't think it serves a purpose to dissuade sockpuppetry when the articles are deleted 3 or 4 years after the sockpuppet has been blocked.
    My main question is one that remains unclear to me even after 11 years, some folks have the perspective that another editor can "take responsibility" for a sock article and so it doesn't get deleted. But other admins seem to have never heard of this informal arrangement and I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't written into policy any where. Liz Read! Talk! 03:03, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Liz! From the pages I looked at, it appears an editor tagged pages created by Bruno pnm ars, a sock who was blocked earlier this month. As such, the concern about looking for socks blocked years ago feels off topic to this conversation. Also, can you explain what you mean by this: some folks have the perspective that another editor can "take responsibility" for a sock article? (she/her)]] (talk) 03:08, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thebiguglyalien explained. I was thinking "take responsibility" could refer to people adding substantial edits to the article, which is explicitly covered under G5. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 03:23, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Significa liberdade, I'm sorry if my comments were "off-topic" from the original subject of this discussion thread. I just thought I'd add on to it. No, the "taking responsibility" has nothing to do with other editors having made contributions to an article created by a sock. It typicallly has happened when we have a surprise sock that has spent years as an editor but who gets discovered and blocked. Their contributions have been otherwise fine. I've had editors come to me as ask to "take responsibility" for some of the better articles written by the old editor/newly discovered sock and, in return, they assume responsibility for any problems that exist with them. It's not an arrangement that many admins will agree to but it gets asked pretty regularly when we have longstanding editors who are found out to be sockpuppets. Liz Read! Talk! 03:36, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for the clarification, and apologies if my original message came across as rude! That wasn't the intention. :) Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 03:40, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The ability to take responsibility for sock edits has been my understanding as well. I got curious, so I did some digging and found WP:BLOCKEVASION, which touches on some of these ideas. Namely,Editors who reinstate edits made by a banned or blocked editor take complete responsibility for the content. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 🛸 03:17, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't believe we have policy documentation with respect to G5 specifically, but as Thebiguglyalien notes, we do have it for block evasion in general, and it also follows from common sense: if a sock fixed a typo, we would not re-introduce it, and even the most pedantic admin would permit the edit being reverted and then reinstated by a user in good standing. The same principle can be extended to entire articles, as creation isn't distinct in this respect from writing content into an existing page. When I have tagged or processed G5s, the critical point is often that content written by a sock cannot be trusted: with rare exceptions, our socks are usually dedicated to creating policy-violating content. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Vanamonde93, well said. Drmies (talk) 03:55, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm happy to take responsibility for the articles I untagged. I hardly did a GA review but they look OK to me. --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:23, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I concur that G5 is permissive, not compulsory. That said, I think that leaving content created by blocked/banned users is a slippery slope and one we should be very careful about going down. Keeping material created via block evasion should be done only rarely. Specifically when deleting or reverting their edits would be clearly disruptive. Keeping such content in most cases effectively sends the signal that you can still edit the encyclopedia while blocked or banned, as long as you do so constructively. That is not a message I think we want to be sending. IMO these pages should all be deleted. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:46, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      • We should always do whatever is most helpful to the reader, which is providing the information they are seeking. If G5 is going to be abused to the detriment of the reader in this way, then it should be repealed as a basis for deletion, and the articles at issue should be sent for discussion, as any rational deletion process would require of content that is not itself identified as a hoax, a copyvio, or otherwise failing to meet criteria that are neutral with respect to the editor who created the article. BD2412 T 03:51, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have an alternative suggestion. Why don't we make blocking/banning optional? More like a suggestion. It would save AfD from becoming a giant time sink. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:56, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          • Blocking and banning, of course, are already optional. We employ a litany of alternatives before we choose to exercise these measures. BD2412 T 04:03, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
            I meant compliance with the block/ban being optional. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:06, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
            I see the point you’re making, but this is an encyclopedia before it’s a court. The best way we can discourage editing by banned or blocked editors is by shuttering the entire project. Retaining valuable encyclopedic content is more important than sending the right message to sockers. If we catch them early, super. If not, I really don’t think we should be knocking down the walls of the place just because they laid some bricks after getting fired. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 02:16, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
        • User:BD2412, I agree that the reader needs to be served--but G5 deletion isn't abuse. I mean, deleting something per G5 is not abuse of G5. The slippery slope noted by Ad Orientem also includes, I believe, "rewarding" the banned/blocked editor, which is not a thing we want to do, although measuring that reward is impossible. Personally I would not just slap G5 on everything, not at all, just like I wouldn't hit "mass revert" on every sock--but I will when their edits are poor, and as User:Vanamonde93 said, above, there's also the matter of trust. Anyway, to answer the question in the heading: no. Drmies (talk) 04:00, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I really hate the spirit of blindly reverting anything done by a blocked sock. This is an encyclopedia, not a… group quilt for the successfully rehabilitated? No, quality articles should not be deleted. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 02:13, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No, that's not it at all. Banned does not mean punish. It means that we want to give good editors a break so they don't have to deal with a troublemaker indefinitely. A dedicated troll can sprinkle edits to let targets know that nothing can be done to stop them. Deleting contributions by banned users is done to retain good editors. Johnuniq (talk) 09:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Being adamant about blocking sockpuppets of users evading their original blocks or bans, then turning face and being unwilling to deter their return by deleting their contributions, makes me wonder why we even bother blocking sockpuppets in the first place. The community either wants their contributions here or not. ✗plicit 04:21, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Rewarding ban/block evasion through retention incentivizes ban/block evasion. This is an observable fact about the current state of affairs with respect to ban evading actors, at least in contentious topic areas. If the objective is "always do whatever is most helpful to the reader", then why not un-ban/unblock the actor that created the content and allow them to edit, or at least provide them with a way back, a middle ground, an alternative to socking. Make a choice. Can a ban evading actor create or update content, yes or no? Reliance on subjective/non-deterministic judgements by individuals or small groups about their content is, in my view, one of the many weaknesses in the countermeasures against ban evasion that are probed and exploited every day, especially by partisan actors. They know that there is a decent chance that their content will be retained or not even noticed. This is something I struggle with, the cost vs benefit of ban evading actors and their content, many of whom are very experienced and knowledgeable editors. At one extreme is the notion that the dishonesty of the actor has been established, and we should not be providing content written by dishonest people, or that rules should be enforced. At the other extreme is an "always do whatever is most helpful to the reader" approach, which has a high cost (in contentious topic areas) that is not usually paid by the people who espouse the view. The optimum solution that disincentivizes ban evasion and helps readers is not clear, to me at least. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:57, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I tried to look at the scale of this issue as part of the ARBCOM5 case by asking how many revisions are by ban evading actors in Wikipedia in general (1 million randomly selected articles) vs a contentious topic area (PIA). See here. Bottomline, a lot of content is written by ban evading actors. Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:14, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    What do socks think about our approach to deleting their articles? Two data points. One very effective ban evading actor (in terms of edit counts) told me via email it's not just "I resent my stuff being deleted" I really do want these people to stop burning down Wikipedia. Another very effective ban evading actor with many thousands of edits across multiple accounts nominated all of the articles created by a different ban evading actor for deletion. The other ban evading actor had the opposite valence in the Arab-Israeli conflict. They voted to retain an article created by a ban evading actor with the same valence as them. Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:36, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    1. The editor was blocked for copyright violations.
    2. Wikipedia:Copyright violations#Presumptive deletion is also policy.
    3. Returning nothing on Earwig does not mean it is not a copyvio. Translation copyvios and print source copyvios are a surprisingly regular occurrence.
    4. The copyright investigation backlog is already bad enough, in part because the community cannot deal with copyright violating sockpuppeteers like this editor.

    Delete them all. MER-C 13:19, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I tend to agree with those arguing that we should be erring on the side of deletion. If they were blocked for content reasons, as appears to be the case here, and the content is good enough and we want them to keep creating socks to create more content, then their main account should just be unblocked. If we don't know if the content is good, then they should be deleted by default. Someone else can take responsibility per Liz, but the articles need to be thoroughly evaluated by that person and we need to actually hold that person responsible if problems are found later. If this were a case of an abusive user whose treatment of other users was so bad we had to block them, then it would be even more important to delete the articles. Completely disagree with the "what's good for the reader is keeping the articles" view in such cases -- otherwise we wouldn't have behavioral policies on Wikipedia at all. Sometimes we take a long-term view of what's best for readers, making sure other people responsible for writing/maintaining articles aren't subject to abuse. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:54, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Personally, I find it highly irritating and undermining of the community when we do not liberally apply G5. This is most especially the case with long term abuse such as Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Slowking4 (going on for 13+ years now) where I vented about the futility of it all. We not only coddle sockpuppets, we actively encourage them to create new content that meets our bar for inclusion, nevermind they have been abusing the project. It's like working side by side with the wiki equivalent of a convicted felon still serving time in prison because they create something. We get so process bound by our policies/guidelines that we lose focus. This has a seriously detrimental effect on other editors, yet we plod ahead with it anyway under the guise of "good content". If we're missing an article or three or 20 even out of 7 million on this project because we liberally apply G5, I dare say the project will someone manage to struggle on. <sigh> Either we get rid of restrictions on G5 or we get rid of G5. The inbetween crap we're enduring now is simply enabling destructive behaviors. It's patently absurd. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:06, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I’m really not offended by the image of accepting work from a felon who contributes valuably. This is not a prison. The whole point of blocking and banning is to serve the encyclopedia. If the encyclopedia is served, and we try to undo those contributions because they were made in violation of a block, we’re treating the block as its own end, more valuable than the encyclopedia. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 02:19, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Agree wholeheartedly with everyone recommending deletion. To add to the voices, this is my plea to consider the effect on your fellow editors. SPI and CP/CCI are basically always backlogged to hell, because these are unpleasant tasks most editors don't want to get involved in. Don't make this even worse for the few editors who handle these things. -- asilvering (talk) 14:15, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    If an article has no actual issues with it (difficult in this particular case due to the potential copyvio issues), including it meeting notability requirements and all other such needs, then I consider deletion of such an article solely under G5 because a blocked editor was involved to indeed be abusive and little different from vandalism. As I've stated several times before, if a banned editor is able to make a separate account on the project and stop the actions that got them banned in the first place and are able to make content without being harmful to other editors or our readers, then we wouldn't know and also wouldn't care. It's the harmful activity that's the problem. Because we're here to build an encyclopedia. That is the full goal of this project. SilverserenC 15:49, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    • G5 deletion is our main defence against banned editors. The main difference between a banned editor and a non-banned editor is that for anon-banned editor, we delete only their bad contributions; for a banned editor we should delete all contributions no matter the quality. Not enforcing bans via G5 just invites sockpuppetry and harms the community that builds our encyclopaedia, so the short term loss of a few articles is well worth it. —Kusma (talk) 17:46, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't see how it harms the community to retain encyclopedic content. I think deleting proper articles is harming the community far more. Because the community is here to build an encyclopedia. Furthermore, WP:BRV explicitly states This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor. That is included because removing proper content is harming Wikipedia. Again, I consider such actions to be vandalism and treat it as such. The editors that delete proper content that has no issues with it are vandalizing Wikipedia and those editors are vandals. Editors who unilaterally push G5 without actually considering the value of the content involved are a net detriment to this project, in my view. SilverserenC 18:18, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      The trouble there is the problem mentioned by @Vanamonde93 and others above - the content usually is not proper, and not always in ways that are immediately evident. Many editors are blocked because we simply cannot afford the time and burnout it would take to be constantly cleaning up after them. You're quite right that if a banned editor created a new account but stopped the actions that got them banned, we wouldn't know and wouldn't care. These editors who have been blocked again for socking, though, they got caught - because they didn't stop the actions that got them banned.
      I don't want us to be deleting good content either. If you spot a sockmaster creating what looks like good content, please, please try your best to convince them to come in from the cold. If they're getting frustrated with unblocks, feel free to ping me in. I promise to be patient with them, and I'll do everything I can to get them back on track. -- asilvering (talk) 18:34, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I already mentioned that this one is more complicated due to it being a ban for copyvios. But there's plenty of banned editors who were banned for behavioral and not content issues. For all we know, they could have made new accounts since and stopped the behavioral problems, so we wouldn't even be aware. SilverserenC 18:43, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Right. But the ones we're catching - the ones who have article creations eligible for G5 - are not those editors. If you see pages getting G5'd and you think it would have benefited the encyclopedia to have them, the best thing you can do for the encyclopedia in that moment is talk to the blocked editor and try to get them to turn things around. -- asilvering (talk) 18:48, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      It harms the community by so watering down our defense mechanisms, i.e. block and ban, as to make them meaningless by encouraging defiance. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:35, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Except I never said to stop blocking and banning any sockpuppets that are found. But unilaterally deleting content (especially since that frequently also results in not only reintroducing typos and vandalism and deleting articles that had other contributors, which I have seen happen plenty from the G5 hardliners despite G5 even explicitly saying not to do that) is not helping the community in the slightest. SilverserenC 18:43, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Oh yes, it is. If an editor writes FAs from Monday to Friday and then spends the weekend attacking other editors with homophobic rants, we need to protect these other editors by truly kicking out the disruptive editor. The only way I know is to delete their contributions until they give up. Content is not more important than the community. —Kusma (talk) 18:58, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      And yet it's the latter that's the reason for the banning. If they continued doing that with another account (or anyone else did), then they'd be banned again. If they made an account and only wrote FAs, then we wouldn't even know or care. Because the harmful behavior stopped. By the meaning of your argument, we should delete their articles even if there are substantial edits by other editors, since the point is to delete the banned editor's contributions over everything else. Is that your stance, Kusma? SilverserenC 19:02, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      We are arguing mostly in hypotheticals here; it is rare that banned editors continue to sock but stop the problematic issues that originally led to their ban. In cases where a banned editor's creation has been substantially edited by others (not common in G5 cases) I would suggest to remove the banned editor's contribution as far as possible without removing the non-banned editors' work. —Kusma (talk) 19:44, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Where's the policy that says that community is more important than content? That seems to violate WP:5P1. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Do we have any good reasons to believe that if we delete their contributions until they give up, that they will actually give up? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:21, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      In your opinion, is there a difference between a banned editor and a not banned editor in terms of contributing to the encyclopaedia? —Kusma (talk) 18:36, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      A banned editor is re-banned on sight. That is the difference. Now, if your question was, is there a difference between the content, then my answer is no. Any and all content should be judged on its own values and whether it meets our requirements. SilverserenC 18:43, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      If an editor who is blocked or banned sockpuppets, and the articles they create have no substantive edits from other editors, then they should absolutely be G5'd. If they do have substantive edits from other editors, then they should not be G5'd. One solution I've seen on occasion for borderline cases is simply to revdel the article creation, removing the "credit" from the sock. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:50, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Let me ask you this. If I go and add a sentence or two and a ref to one of said articles, why is that now a totally fine article in your opinion? What was wrong with the other content in the article prior to that edit that now is fine because I made that addition? I know that the answer is that the content is fine. And it is precisely because of that that I consider deletion of said articles as vandalism. Because there's nothing wrong with the articles and the content. SilverserenC 18:58, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Removing the credit is pointless. The banned user has in such a case been allowed to contribute. —Kusma (talk) 19:00, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Some of the articles I listed were about the 2024 political upheavals in Bangladesh. They looked not only useful but very important. I’m traveling now but it’s on my list to note those articles and this discussion at the appropriate WikiProject. A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 20:00, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      If I go and add a sentence or two and a ref to one of said articles, why is that now a totally fine article in your opinion? "A sentence or two and a ref" =/= "substantive edits", so please don't presume what I'm saying. Also it is precisely because of that that I consider deletion of said articles as vandalism this is extremely concerning coming from an editor of your stature. WP:NOTVAND. Calling admins who are adhering to policy vandals is a bold strategy, Cotton.- The Bushranger One ping only 21:40, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Actually, I thought that adding content and sources did count "substantive edits". Non-substantive edits are things like citation formatting, changing the categories, and adding maintenance tags. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:23, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Also I would like to point out that WP:BANNEDMEANSBANNED is policy. Bans apply to all editing, good or bad. This really should end the discussion. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:53, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      The Bushranger, do you have examples of those revision deletions? I interpret your description as hiding the username, which removes attribution and may introduce a license violation, per WP:Revision deletion#Notes on use (policy), Username hiding (copyright attribution issues). A similar hypothetical case was discussed at WT:Revision deletion/Archive 5#"where all changes will be reverted". Flatscan (talk) 04:29, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Unfortunately no, it's been a long time since I saw it done. I know it has been done in the past, but that's all I've got. - The Bushranger One ping only 17:59, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    This discussion is a very interesting conflict between reader benefit and community ego. 2600:1014:B1E2:B2F7:3DDB:248A:A85E:E601 (talk) 23:29, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't think you can talk about a "community ego". An ego can be associated with an individual, not a group. Liz Read! Talk! 00:18, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Let me suggest a different point of contention here. Most of us in this conversation are administrators which means that if we want to have a look at deleted content to see if, for example, copyvio concerns are actually warranted, or if parts of it can be salvaged for the betterment of the encyclopedia, we have the ability to do that. However, the average editor does not have such access. Their path to even being able to examine any substantial number of deleted articles is far more convoluted. A non-admin can't even see the edit history of the deleted article to determine independently whether the deleted content really did represent the work of a single blocked or banned author. If the entire goal of G5 is to deter banned editors by denying them the reward of having articles in our most visible space, then why not just move suspect articles to draft, and require substantial additional contributions as a prerequisite for restoration to mainspace? BD2412 T 16:15, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Because it leaves their contributions intact. They are still editing the encyclopedia. If there is a significant desire to allow blocked/banned users to edit, then the proper course is to open a community discussion about substantially amending some pretty core policies, i.e. WP:BLOCK/BAN/EVADE/BMB etc. As long as these remain policy, reversion and G5 are the normative response to contributions created in defiance of being blocked or banned. Yes, some exceptions do exist. But they are exceptions. And they are fairly narrow. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:56, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Why do these exceptions exist? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 07:21, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      BD2412, that's a great idea. --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 19:56, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      If the entire goal of G5 is to deter banned editors by denying them the reward of having articles in our most visible space, then why not just move suspect articles to draft, and require substantial additional contributions as a prerequisite for restoration to mainspace - I do not follow this logic. If the goal is to deter banned editors by denying them the reward of having articles, nothing following "then why not" should include keeping the articles. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 21:26, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Rhododendrites: Moving to draftspace is not the same as "keeping the articles". If it was, article creators in AfD wouldn't fight tooth and nail to keep their articles from being moved to draftspace as an ATD. I remind you that an article in draftspace is automatically deleted if not worked on for six months; that six months gives other editors an opportunity salvage good content that is useful to readers to keep in the encyclopedia. BD2412 T 01:39, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
        And since the Draft: space is where articles go to die, I think we can assume that most of them will end up deleted.
        The drafts might turn into a honeypot for catching the newest socks for that editor. Overall, I like this idea. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:26, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I have left messages at six relevant WikiProjects informing them of this discussion and asking them to look at these articles:

    --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 21:04, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm not sure what the point is, as this is neither an AfD discussion nor an appropriate forum for discussing changes to long established policy. If these pages were in fact created by a banned user, then the only question is whether or not they meet the narrow criteria for an exception to G5. That's pretty much it. If this is some kind of attempt to urge a rush of editing in an effort to make G5 inapplicable, that could be seen as WP:GAMING. FTR I have not yet looked at the editing history of the pages, but if no one else gets to them first, I will likely begin the process of reviewing them soon. FWIW I concede it is possible some of the pages may have developed organically to a point where G5 might not be applicable. But edits made after this discussion began will not be counted. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:42, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Ad Orientem, I posted my question to clarify policy, not to change it.
    As I read G5, it seemed to allow but not require deletion. I saw a lot of what looked like useful content, some of it about major events in Bangladesh, going out the door and came here.
    Based on 1971asif's edit history, copyright concerns were raised. In response, I did copyright checks on most of the articles and found few problems. I have worked with Earwig's tool in the past and realize the probability score it gives can be misleading so I compared sentences in the sources to sentences in the articles before noting whether copyright issues were likely. I can't rule out the possibility of plagiarism from offline or non-English sources but my understanding is that 1971asif's previous copyright violations were not particularly hard to spot. As I noted previously, I'm comfortable with these articles.
    I also did not intend this to be a quasi-AfD. I listed the articles here so people could see what I was referring to. I posted notices at the six WikiProjects so better informed editors could see if there was something I was missing.
    I have not compared all these articles to see if they're translations of articles from other Wikipedias without proper attribution. A quick spot check indicated at least one that was similar to another Wikipedia's article; I don't know which version came first. I will check these for that and fix any issues but only for articles that aren't deleted.
    My main focus is content, not behaviour. I think BD2412's suggestion to move these articles to draft space as an alternative to immediate deletion is a good one. --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 01:15, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    We keep coming back to the core issue. Either the community has the power to ban users, or it doesn't. A ban means that people are not allowed to edit the encyclopedia. You and the others arguing for retention of these pages, are basically saying that a ban does not mean a ban and as long as their editing is constructive they should be given a pass. Such a position would have severe implications for the community's ability to impose any kind of order backed by credible sanctions. I'm sorry, but it's time to call a shovel a shovel. That's F***ing bonkers. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ad Orientem: If a sock of a banned editor fixes an obvious misspelling or corrects an obvious factual error, shouldn't that fix be reverted to the wrong spelling or the wrong information on that reasoning? BD2412 T 02:59, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No. That falls under one of the three explicitly stated exceptions to WP:EVADE. We should not restore a version of a page that is obviously disruptive. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:11, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    How is restoring a disruptive version of a page different in principle to deleting a quality article? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 07:22, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No-one has established there is a quality article. All that's been done is to run the pages through earwig. CMD (talk) 07:34, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Zanahary I am going to repeat for your benefit what I have already said above, multiple times. If you want to change policy, this is not the right venue. I suggest WP:VPP where you can propose that blocked and banned users be allowed to edit the encyclopedia as long as they are playing nice at the time. Good luck. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:42, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It’s disappointing that instead of answering this question and acknowledging a drawback to your approach, you’re choosing to be snide and pretend like the issue has already reached a settled consensus—when this discussion full of longtime editors, including administrators, who don’t consider G5 deletions necessarily good for Wikipedia is proof that the question is unsettled. I’m asking you: why are there exceptions to this rule? And what makes these exceptions so different from the case at hand? The sanction-integrity-first philosophy you favor would forbid even the leaving-alone of minor corrections by banned and blocked editors. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 16:15, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you spend enough time dealing with LTA socks, then you'll soon realize that WP:BANNEDMEANSBANNED is in the best interest of all editors. Outside of reinstating vandalism, I revert all their contributions on sight. Letting LTAs contribute in any way just encourages the behavior more, and in the end, does more harm than good for everyone. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 21:28, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I’m of the opinion that extensive experience whack-a-moleing problematic editors does not give one privileged understanding of how to balance content and conduct concerns on Wikipedia—this is an encyclopedia first; any “balance” that would remove valuable encyclopedic content from Wikipedia in order to advance the punishment/effective silencing of editors who’ve misbehaved is completely upside-down in a way that I think has to do with the maddening, frustrating sort of work that one overengaged with tackling LTAs does, at the detriment of their engagement with Wikipedia’s content side, which is the only reason for any other “side” to exist. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 16:19, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • We should do what benefits the reader. If the articles have no issues – other than the authorship, then they should be kept. If you really want to "punish" the blocked user by making sure they're never credited with writing articles, why not just erase them from the page history? As a hypothetical example, let's say some user gets blocked for vandalism, then years later comes back as a sock and becomes a prolific author of many FAs – should the hypothetical editor be blocked/banned and all the FAs deleted because "they were a sock!!!"? BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:02, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      • People keep saying "what benefits the reader" as though it's self-evident. If it always mean keeping content, we should just get rid of our behavioral policies. Otherwise, we can acknowledge that for those extreme cases where we have to block someone from editing completely, maybe it "benefits the reader" to protect the people who write/maintain the rest of Wikipedia from abuse, to save them time so they can create other articles, and to ensure the reader isn't being served incorrect or copyvio content. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 01:24, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
        • If an editor is being disruptive then they no doubt should be blocked, but that doesn't mean all their good contributions need to be erased as 'punishment' because they were 'being bad'. In my made-up example, do you think all the FAs should be deleted? BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          G5 does not apply to any pages that have had substantial good faith contributions from non sanctioned editors. And YES, blocked and banned editors are not allowed to edit the encyclopedia. The quality of their contributions are immaterial. Again, see WP:BMB which is WP:POLICY. Any other approach severely, arguably fatally, undermines the ability of the community to enforce its rules. That we are actually seriously discussing this is nuts. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:38, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          So let's say the many FAs have no substantial contributions other than the sock who was blocked years earlier for being disruptive – should they be deleted? BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:44, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          Yes. It's either that, or we abandon our ability to impose meaningful sanctions. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:47, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          And who would deleting the FAs benefit, aside from perhaps a few editors feeling satisfaction because "ooh we punished him good for his disruptiveness from 10 years ago haha!"? Block those who are actively harming the encyclopedia; but if they're not, then wouldn't that just make the blocks/deletions purely punitive? BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:55, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          @BeanieFan11 If you want to argue that the community should not have the power to ban users, you are free to make your case. I suggest Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). Good luck with that. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:16, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          Not saying that at all. I'm saying: why should we block productive users and delete all their content as "punishment" for old actions? BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:21, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          For the 100000000000th time, because if we allow it to stand, we are saying block evasion is OK as long as you are engaging in constructive editing. And then the community has to spend X amount of time figuring out if their edits are in fact constructive. Further it means the community does not have the power to actually ban anyone and blocks effectively become meaningless. Here is the bottom line. BAN/BLOCK/EVADE/BMB are all POLICY. IMO they are core policy that are essential to the smooth operation of the project and the ability of the community to set enforceable P&G. Until that changes, I will enforce them. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:34, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          This is such an abstract argument. Why is the essence of a block more important than the very real content of an encyclopedia? You’re arguing from “we HAVE to be able to make perfect blocks” as though it’s more important than building an encyclopedia, rather than a tool developed to enable the building of an encyclopedia. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 03:24, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          Our policy is: If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:38, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          As far as parsing what policy says: The preamble of WP:EVADEBAN makes it clear we need to balance competing concerns. Its subsection, WP:BMB, specifies that editing by banned editors is forbidden, but I don't see this necessarily implying that if it did happen, it must summarily be reverted. Another subsection, WP:BRV, specifies such edits may be reverted, but immediately specifies "this does not mean the edits must be reverted". Finally, G5 is a speedy deletion rationale that implements this when removing such contributions means deleting a whole article, but it doesn't itself impose a must where none already exists by policy. (As I wrote in my top-level comment below, I respect the arguments of those arguing reversion/deletion should be the default outcome in almost all such cases, though I don't think that's reasonable. Here I'm just addressing the fact that some of the arguments in this discussion in favour of "compulsory" deletion are going beyond what policy currently actually says.) Martinp (talk) 13:39, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          @Ad Orientem: Have you even considered the possibility that a blocked or banned editor might create an article just to make us go through the trouble of deleting it under G5? That they might be mocking us by tricking us into deleting content that is objectively good for the encyclopedia? BD2412 T 02:06, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          @A. B. I just deleted an unrelated page on G5 grounds. It took me 2 clicks and about 3 seconds. If you add in the amount of time it took me to review the page and ensure it was a valid G5, you could add maybe 30 seconds. I'm not troubled by the lost time. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:14, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          In that absurd hypothetical, the disruptive user is spending perhaps hours to days to evade in a way an admin can handle in seconds. There can't be many worse ways to mock. CMD (talk) 07:39, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
          A sanction is given meaning by its effect on Wikipedia—not its effect on the resolve of the renegade socks. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 02:22, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • An essay I once wrote on this issue, which may still be of interest, can be found here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:08, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have some sympathy with the "banned means banned" position, but I still haven't seen an answer from its supporters to the question implied by my rather terse statement above. If we are to say that something must be done then we are saying that someone must do it. Who? Phil Bridger (talk) 09:09, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • On balance, I favour G5 deletion to be optional not mandatory. I respect the argument that bans are effective if and only if they are enforced. However, if an article is good, deleting it purely because of revelations about its authorship is counterproductive for our overall mission of building an encyclopedia. One of our fundamental policies, WP:IAR, guides us when our (other) policies clash, and this is such an instance. (I'm not saying "keep the articles by invoking IAR" rather "look to IAR as a north star in situations where our principles and policies provide inconsistent guidance", such as here.)
    With that in mind, I'm all for nuking such content when there's increased suspicion it might be a copyvio, biased, etc., where scarce community time would need to be redirected to give it sufficient scrutiny. In particular, we do not want our content to be manipulated by allowing editors deliberately excluded from the community continuing to indirectly control where the community spends its time. But I support admins exercising their discretion by saying, "wait a moment, this is good stuff, no need to remove it".
    Having been around WP (if not very active) for nearly 20 years, I'm pretty sure there's a small but significant number of active users who are better-behaved reincarnations of users who flamed out previously. (Some) people mature and get better socialized over time, and the personality type to spend hours on WP is pretty rare. And persistent. While I endorse the philosophy of WP:BMB, I'm fine being pragmatic about it, the priorities being encylopedic quality first, community health a strong second, and policy enforcement per se a distant third. Martinp (talk) 10:27, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Adding: For these specific articles, I would have seen nothing wrong in an admin deciding to G5 them (at least those without substantive edits by others, I haven't checked), with the argument that there is risk in letting content that turns out to have been added by a user banned for copyvio issues stand, a risk that is not worth the effort to mitigate. I also see nothing wrong in an admin hesitating and asking for guidance, then them and others doing a reasonable level of verification against copyvio, and then deciding the risk-return is in favour of keeping the content. Which seems to be what has happened here. Martinp (talk) 13:11, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I am responding to comments others have made regarding my actions. I started this thread to get guidance, not change our policies or start a deletion discussion. Based on others' responses, I then examined 15 of the 19 articles for copyvio issues.

    Editors have commented that my use of Earwig's Copyvio Detector tool to test those articles was just a cursory check for copyright violations, including close paraphrasing. This is not true. After running the tool on these articles I checked them line by line with the sources most likely to have shared content. This was not a 100% test but it was a big enough sample that I should have seen more signs of trouble if these were plagiarized articles. I think the two copyvio scenarios I didn't test are unlikely:

    1. I did not check if a foreign language source was plagiarized:
      • 1971asif and his sock puppets have done almost no editing on the Bengali or Italian Wikipedias.
      • My understanding is that 1971asif previously plagiarized English language sources. In the case of the 2024 Bangladesh constitutional crisis and the 2015 Italian murder of Emmanuel Chidi, there was so much English language digital coverage it would have been easier to just lift English text than copy and then translate text from Bengali or Italian sources.
    2. I did not check if a printed source was plagiarized.
      • There was such an abundance of global online coverage of the Bangladesh upheavals and the Italian murder I see no reason someone would transcribe newspapers and magazines.

    I've looked at a lot of content over 20 years including copyright problems. After 90 minutes with these articles, I'm 75% confident that all of them are reasonably reliable. I'm 90% confident that the nine most important articles (the Murder of Emmanuel Chidi and the Bangladeshi political articles) are reasonably reliable.

    Having previously been an admin myself, I'm certainly familiar with banned users and sock puppets. Those banned editors that don't reform, we find sooner or later. 1971asif's socks did something to trigger a SPI. For whatever reason, however, I'm not seeing critical problems with the 15 articles I scrutinized.

    I did not originally come here to opine on these articles' deletion but since many others have, here are my thoughts:

    • It may be a waste but I won't cry if someone deletes Anna Mussolini's article. It would sure be a shame, though, to delete the nine articles that cover important events.
    • I see both sides of the G5 debate. I think pragmatism is called for here; call it a mix of caution and WP:IAR.
    • Given all the discussion above, by now if deletions are called for, I hope that these particular articles would be discussed at AfD, not speedily deleted.
    • Should the more important articles get deleted, I hope someone here then steps forward to fill the resulting content hole.

    --A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 02:22, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks for doing those checks, @A. B.. -- asilvering (talk) 04:57, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I worry that this discussion has gotten bogged down in the hypotheticals. Frankly I don't care too much about the philosophical issue of what to do with an editor evading a block to create FAs; it is a distraction from the far, far more common question of how to handle imperfect-but-plausibly-useful material. I maintain as above that deletion isn't mandatory in this circumstance, but the caveats are critically important; deletion isn't mandatory iff another editor substantially revises the content, or - in my opinion - verifies that the content is policy compliant to the same extent that they would their own work, such that they explicitly take responsibility for it. A. B., based on a long history interacting with the South Asian political POV-pushers, I do not trust the content of an article such as Aftermath of July Revolution (Bangladesh), which is on a fraught topic - but if you, A.B., have checked every citation the way you would if you were writing a page, and explicitly said you had done so on the talk page, I would perhaps pass on a G5. Otherwise, we ought to be nuking the page. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      @Vanamonde93, you raise a very good point. I got sucked once into a South Asian article dispute, then dragged to ANI and accused of all sorts of stuff by a partisan editor (later banned). So I have painful experience of what you’re warning about! The worst South Asian fighting I’ve seen involves Hindu nationalists vs Muslims; theses articles are more about internal Bangladesh politics. That said, I mostly examined them for copyvios; tomorrow, I’ll go look again for other stuff.
      Vanamonde, thanks for taking on South Asian edit-warring; it’s too intense for me. Our South Asian articles are important and I appreciate your work to keep them honest.
      —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 01:06, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I regret to inform you that these internal Bangladesh politics are fraught on Wikipedia for precisely those reasons. You may be interested in, for example, Anti-Bangladesh disinformation in India and its current AfD. -- asilvering (talk) 01:25, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      @A. B.: Internal Bangladeshi politics are fraught in exactly the same way as the others, and this particular dispute is rife with the same nationalist POV-pushing, as Asilvering points out. If these articles were written by an editor in good standing, and I subsequently found them full of NPOV violations, I would likely ask for the author to be sanctioned under CTOP procedures. Are you willing to accept responsibility for these creations to the extent that you would accept the consequences for any policy violations therein? If not, then with respect you have no business declining a G5. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:44, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      As I said, I’ll look at these tomorrow. —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:47, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Yeah, just to bring this back to the articles in question, I did a quick spot check and I could use a second opinion re: source integrity. I'm finding a fair few statements that don't appear to supported by the sources they cite, but I'm not familiar enough with the subject area to say anything past that. For reference, I picked out about 10 sentences total written by the sock from three article (10 overall, not each) and found potential issues with seven of them.
      Aftermath of July Revolution (Bangladesh)
      • :In total, around twelve judges resigned or were removed as part of the efforts to restore confidence in the judiciary and cleanse it of perceived biases
        • That's sourced to [3], which does not say... anything there. It says that 6 judges resigned, at that they resigned for safety reasons due to the protestors threatening to beseige their houses.
        • Closest I've found to a RS backing this claim up is an AP news article [4] saying that they resigned as part of a re-organization attempt.
      • Under emergency provisions in Article 72(1), the president had the authority to dissolve parliament, but critics (Kamal Hossain) argued that this provision was never intended to be used as a pretext for removing an elected government and bypassing parliamentary processes (Sourced to [5] and [6])
        • The Diplomat does not support this statement, and does not mention Kama Hossain.
        • Second source is about the legality of the interim government and contains an argument that it's in the spirit of the law, albeit illegal. Does not mention Kamal Hossain, critics, or back up this statement.
      • Under Article 56(1) of the Constitution of Bangladesh, the prime minister is required to be a member of parliament, but Yunus did not hold a parliamentary seat, creating significant legal uncertainty about his legitimacy
        • Entire paragraph is about Yunus's legitimacy - the VOA source [7] does not discuss Yunus's legitimacy, or discuss anybody talking about his legitimacy. It's about creating a new constitution.
      2024 Bangladesh alleged judicial coup attempt
      • This meeting was perceived as a prelude to issuing a ruling that could undermine the interim government and potentially pave the way for Hasina's return
        • Sourced to [8] which doesn't say that. It quotes a member of the interim government saying "The Chief Justice, who is part of the fascist regime, has called upon a full court meeting without consulting the government. We won't tolerate any conspiracy. We had called for his resignation earlier, and we'll take strict action if the CJ tries to give any incitement" and a statement from the student union saying "We'll topple the fascist judicial system today. Also, we'll destroy all the fascist teachers' associations and syndicates at educational institutions immediately". While I don't think it's unlikely that you could find a source making the above claim, that's not what this one says.
      • to secure their support and involvement in overseeing the transition, in reference to the interim government reaching out to the international community
        • Sourced to [9], which is essentially just a list of all the countries which made statements about the interim government. It does not comment on the interim government's motivations or goals.
      Presidency of Hussain Muhammad Ershad
      • during the lack of farsightedness and betrayal of some of the DUCSU leaders in 1980s, anti-Ershad movement lost its appeal among the students
        • Cited to [10], or, at least, that's the next citation and they were added in the same edit. Failed verification.
      • In February 1989, Bangladesh Chhatra League, Bangladesh Students Union and the leftist student organisations gave a joint panel under Chatra Shangram Parishad (Students Action Council) won the majority of the posts in the DUCSU election and Sultan Mansur Ahmed became the Vice-President of DUCSU. But this committee was proven as a failed one to challenge the regime and could not contribute much in the anti-Ershad movement.
        • Cited to [11]. Failed verification. In fact, the source says "It also played a major role in rebuilding the war-torn Bangladesh in the first half of the 1970s. Rising against the Ershad regime and leading the democratic revolution from the front was another success of DUCSU."
      Again, not familiar enough with the subject area to say what's true or not, or figure out if these are good-faith mistakes or POV pushing. But anyways, anybody up for a second opinion? GreenLipstickLesbian💌🦋 06:43, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      @GreenLipstickLesbian: I appreciate the diligence: this is precisely what I meant above about content from blocked sockpuppets often not being trustworthy. In my view this is clear evidence that we have no business ignoring the banning policy to preserve these. I would strongly suggest deleting them under G5; if there were not active discussion here, I would tag them myself. Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:21, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Question: Alias (2013 film) OK, we have live - meaning created in 2017 and still an article as of 2025, though of course WP:BLP applies everywhere - article that may well either meet WP:G5 or not be a WP:G5 candidate.
    It was created 21 Jan 2017 by 2227movies
    It was edited on 21 Jan 2017 by Mauro Lanari
    It was edited on 12 Feb 2017 by Canadiancinema
    Please see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Scallywag787/Archive for more context here
    As far as I can see, it meets WP:NFILM. Technically it might not meet WP:G5, as the additions there may avoid outright speedy deletion. Or were they pretty much cosmetic updates, that did not avoid the substantive WP:G5 issues there?
    Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 12:07, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No, that is not eligible for G5 no matter what. It was created by a sock, yes, but the sockmaster was not blocked at the time that article was created. WP:G5: This applies to pages created by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block (emphasis in original). A page created before the ban or block was imposed or after it was lifted will not qualify under this criterion.. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:02, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I really hope that those admins in this discussion who are strongly advocating for deletion of the articles at issue under this allowance are grasping the deep unease that many have expressed with the deletion of information based solely on the actions of the author, rather than the validity of the content. I think there is room for compromise to bring about a better result for readers. BD2412 T 03:24, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      There is little evidence of strong concerns for preserving the content, or at least any strong enough for action to be taken to assess the validity of the content. It was noted that the creator was blocked for copyright violations near the very start of this discussion, and the community has strong norms about copyright violations that often lead to revision deletion at the least. Checking and removing copyright violations requires some editing work and time. However, over the almost week since the deletion tags were removed near the start of this discussion, the first three articles listed (2024 Bangladesh alleged judicial coup attempt, 2024 Bangladesh presidential resignation protests, Aftermath of July Revolution (Bangladesh), I did not check further down the list) have received a grand total of zero edits. CMD (talk) 04:10, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I am referring to the unease with G5 as a general principle, even in cases where there is no suspicion of a copyvio. I would repeat my earlier proposition that suspect articles be moved to draftspace for review, and remain there until reviewed. BD2412 T 04:19, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      WP:BANNEDMEANSBANNED is policy. If a blocked or banned editor evades that ban and creates content, there is nothing to review. The fact at least one editor here explictly said they consider application of WP:G5 (also policy) as being vandalism is what gives me a deep unease. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:41, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      How is an editor to determine whether there was usable content for an encyclopedic subject? Admins are not gods, nor infallible. Our work must be subject to review by the community. BD2412 T 16:08, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I'd never vote for an admin candidate who supported strict application of G5. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:28, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      So you consider the work of editors evading blocks and evading bans to be more valuable than admins following Wikipedia policy? - The Bushranger One ping only 23:11, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, I consider the retention of valuable encyclopedic content infinitely above effective prohibition of editing. The value of the latter is completely dependent on the former, and the enactment of the latter at the expense of the former is both ridiculous and destructive to the encyclopedia. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 23:34, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      You'd better go and propose changes to the sockpuppetry policy, the banning policy, and the speedy deletion policy then, since the fact of the matter is that position says that blocks are worthless since you approve of evading them to create valuable encyclopedic content. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:05, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I guess I’d better! Thanks for the advice. In the meantime, I’ll vote honestly, which is what this exchange was about. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 02:14, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      It is also entirely conceivable that an admin overzealously looking to enforce G5 will either miss or undervalue additions by a non-suspect editor, or mistake an innocent editor for a sockpuppet of the banned editor and delete contributions that are not not actually the product of a blocked or banned editor at all. If the edit history of an article has been wiped from editor view by deletion, how is the typical Wikipedia editor to check these things? Admin actions must be transparent and reviewable. BD2412 T 03:48, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      ...wow. Just wow. Way to not WP:AGF! You're assuming rogue admins are roving around just looking for articles to G5. This is very much not the case. When an editor is confirmed as a sock and blocked, then things get G5'd. If they're delete[ing] contributions that are not not actually the product of a blocked or banned editor at all then the innocent editor has also already been blocked as a sock. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:25, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      It is abundantly clear from the discussion above that there are admins who are chomping at the bit to delete things under the rationale of G5. I can think of few ideas more dangerous to this project than the proposition that admins are incapable of making mistakes. There is no question that an aggressive enough G5 deletion campaign will capture some articles for which additional substantive edits were made by uninvolved editors, and I have little doubt that over the long history of this project, some editors have incorrectly been deemed sockpuppets of banned editors. BD2412 T 16:07, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't know how many G5 deletions are done without speedy deletion tags but in the case of those that are tagged, there's always a second editor involved. A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 16:37, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      It is abundantly clear from the discussion above that there are admins who are chomping at the bit to delete things under the rationale of G5. Only if one reads this with the assumption of bad faith. - The Bushranger One ping only 17:20, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      There are admins who have expressly stated in the discussion their intent to delete content based solely on its provenance, without consideration of the reason for the block or ban, and particularly without consideration of what benefits readers of the encyclopedia. To the extent that admins have expressed a desire to delete even substantively unproblematic content (i.e., accurate, well-sourced, well-supported, non-copyvio material) without consideration of any alternative to deletion, there is nothing there to which an assumption of good faith can be accorded. BD2412 T 19:51, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I do not desire to delete substantive good contributions by banned editors, I just believe it should be done. Either allow the editor to contribute (=unban) or do not allow them to contribute (and then enforce it). I do not know a method to enforce a ban on contributing other than deleting contributions that have been made against the ban. If we are unwilling to enforce a ban, we should lift it. You can personally choose not to enforce the banning policy in a particular instance, but please do not ask other admins to ignore a policy you do not like. —Kusma (talk) 20:28, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      @Kusma: I do know a method to enforce a ban on contributing other than deleting contributions. Move them to draft space and require independent review and contributions by another editor before they can be restored to mainspace. BD2412 T 20:43, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Except that still has the blocked editor's evading contributions existing either in draftspace (which blocked/banned editors cannot edit) or, worse, if it is restored to mainspace, in the mainspace. It's clear you don't like the blocking and banning policies, and that's fine, we're allowed not to like policy. But we as admins must follow policy, and suggesting a policy you don't like be worked around is Wikilawyering at best. Either formally suggest the policy be changed or grit your teeth and bear it, and in the meantime stop assuming bad faith on the part of admins who state that they will follow Wikipedia policy. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:58, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      A banned editor creates an article in mainspace. A regular editor comes along and makes substantive edits to expand and improve the article. Should it then be deleted, to prevent the banned editor's edits from persisting? If not, what difference does it make whether those edits were made in mainspace or draft space? Surely you know that most draftspace pages end up getting deleted under G13 anyway. With respect to the policy, I don't need to change it at all. It is within my rights as an administrator to restore every single page ever deleted under G5 to draft space, if I so choose. I'm not so choosing. I'm just advocating for a more considered application of a non-compulsory deletion rationale going forward. BD2412 T 21:34, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Interesting discussion. G5 deletions have often made me uneasy for the reasons for the reasons given above; we're deleting content because of who created it, not for reasons specific to the content itself. That said, there are strong arguments that we shouldn't trust content created by someone who was banned. One, there's the underlying reason for why they were banned. Two, a banned user can't engage in discussion about the content. Three, the moral hazard: there's ego at work in seeing your work on Wikipedia. If it persists, that encourages the banned user. I've seen this dynamic at work for over a decade in an area where I edit, and I have to admit that we didn't get control of the situation until most of the banner user's contributions were refactored or purged outright, even where the topics were notable. If the topic is notable and important someone in good standing will write about it. Mackensen (talk) 16:17, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, interesting, but doesn't seem to be going anywhere – what a surprise! I think I looked at about a dozen of these pages, but deleted only four of them (1, 2, 3, 4 – anyone who thinks those deletions were mistaken should go ahead and restore them); for the others, it seemed to me that there were too many contributions by others for G5 to apply. I'd have liked to delete them per WP:BMB/WP:DENY, but did not feel justified in doing so. A couple of random observations: WP:SPI and WP:CCI are two of our biggest timesinks, so contributions that run afoul of both are particularly unwelcome, and summary deletion (where possible) a particularly good way of dealing with them; removal of copyvio content is automatic and usually immediate, but there's also nothing in policy to stop people from summarily removing all sockpuppet content from a page in much the same manner – page deletion is not the only option available. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:47, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I appreciate your careful approach, @Justlettersandnumbers. None of those were on the list above. A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 17:15, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, A. B.; yes, that's why I made a point of listing them here. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:48, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Re: "page deletion is not the only option available"; draftification is also an entirely reasonable option. I would guess that most mainspace articles that get moved to draft after the article creator has been blocked eventually get deleted as G13 anyway, but at least the opportunity then exists for regular editors to review and improve the topic if it merits an article. BD2412 T 17:52, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    (NB indent increased above) BD2412, draftification might work for a recently-created page with no major edits from other users, but that page can be deleted under G5 in the usual way. Many pages (~80%?) created by this particular sock are over ninety days old, so a priori ineligible for draftification; draftification of any page that has enough third-party edits to make it ineligible for G5 is disappearingly unlikely to 'stick' for more than a few minutes. And anyway sends quite the wrong message to the sockmaster. What we want to say is "drop it, you're wasting your time and ours", not "we've moved it to where your next sock can play with it undisturbed". The point of a deterrent is to deter, not to enable. I'm going to step away from this discussion now, as I don't think I have more to contribute to it. Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:14, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Justlettersandnumbers: I am only proposing draftification for pages eligible for deletion under G5 anyway. I would go so far as draftification and stubification if there are content concerns. BD2412 T 21:38, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I support this idea. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 22:44, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    With respect, this is a terrible idea. A very large proportion of content that is G5 eligible comes from editors who were banned for problems with their content, CTOP NPOV violations and UPE/Promo being the most common concerns. These editors are evading blocks with the express intention of creating content that violates policy. I have argued above that G5 deletions are not absolutely mandatory, but we seem to be suggesting here that they're completely unnecessary, or that the content can be treated as viable by default, which is, sorry, just bonkers. I'm not going to get further into the weeds here - this discussion has gotten far too philosophical - but I will note that I intend to continue tagging and deleting under G5 unless I see strong evidence as to it being unhelpful, and per GLL's research above the specific article's that triggered this debate should absolutely be nuked. Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:31, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    We have already established in this discussion that we are talking about deleting articles irrespective of content quality issues, including copyvio and spam concerns. If it's spam, use WP:G11. If it's a copyvio, use WP:G12. I would even support created sub-rationales to G5 where copyvio is suspected or G5 where COI/UPE/spam is suspected. If the sole purpose of a deletion is to WP:DENY a sockpuppet without consideration of issues with the article, or where those sorts of issues are clearly absent from the article, then draftification -- with specific instruction that the content can not be restored to mainspace without administrative review confirming substantial improvement -- is the best option for regular editors and readers. BD2412 T 01:18, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    FYI, I have begun cutting back 2024 Bangladesh alleged judicial coup attempt to something a little more than a stub. A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 01:34, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    draftification is also an entirely reasonable option is only true if there is an exception to WP:COPYVIO for draft space. It's not directly addressed, but I am not confident such an exception would have community support. CMD (talk) 02:23, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I checked most of the articles. They look ok. If there are copyvios, they’re small and fixable. See my comments above.
    Articles with known copyvios need to be fixed or deleted in my opinion. I don’t think draftification is a good choice since it means Wikipedia is still knowingly hosting copyright violations viewable by the public. A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 02:38, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Chipmunkdavis: Copyvios are speediable under WP:G12, therefore, WP:G5 need not even enter into that discussion. I am proposing draftification absent copyvio issues. Pure spam also has its own deletion rationale, for which G5 need not enter into the discussion at all. BD2412 T 03:54, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    G12 doesn't need to enter into the discussion if G5 is followed. Your proposal requires people to check for copyvio issues, which is already one of our longest backlogs. CMD (talk) 07:26, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I think a salient point is that some of these articles covered important topics (constitutional crisis in major democracy and a globally publicized racist murder within the EU). 95% or more of G5 articles are not what I’d call important. Administrators are chosen in part to make judgement calls in applying policies that sometimes very deliberately leave some wiggle room in interpretation to allow for edge cases. It’s why we have human administrators, not bots deleting content. Ditto hallucinating AIs. (Not yet anyway.) —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 13:08, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think anyone has disagreed with that. CMD (talk) 15:11, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the importance of the articles strengthens the G5 argument rather than weakening it. There is a much higher chance of their recreation by a good, good-faith editor, and on the other hand there are also much higher stakes for the article being problematic. -- asilvering (talk) 17:08, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    copyvios are not speediable under G12, blatant copyvios are. Likely copyvios other editors can't access the source for or where there is a history of source fraud, copyvios involving close paraphrasing cannot be G12-ed. Articles with extensive, but not all-encompassing copyvios cannot be G12-ed. Articles which are blatant copyvios of non-English sources sometimes get declined. These have to be dealt with individually, a process which my own experience can often take upwards of several hours per article. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🦋 04:01, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I wrote an essay on this topic: Wikipedia:G5 is not a firm rule. In summary: no. The spirit of G5 descends from Wikipedia:Blocking policy § Edits by and on behalf of banned and blocked editors, which states:

      Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a ban or block, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule. This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor (changes that are obviously helpful, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand), but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert.

      Similarly, WP:G5 does not mean that administrators must delete pages just because they were created by a blocked or banned user, but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to delete. For example, if you were already thinking of sending a page through AfD or PROD because of lack of notability or some other reason, G5 lets us save community time and delete right away because the user should not have been able to create the page anyway—but if your natural instinct was to let the article/page stay up, then as an admin, you have the discretion to let it stay up. Mz7 (talk) 02:48, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    G5 section: Arbitrary section break

    [edit]
    • Update: After spending... don't ask how many hours looking at the sources, I've AFD-ed one of the articles Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2024 Bangladesh alleged judicial coup attempt. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🦋 03:47, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      This is a good illustration of the problem: to clean up after a blocked sockpuppet, we need someone like GLL to spend hours looking at sources, and then AfD participants to also spend an additional bunch of time, and an admin to close the discussion... for a single article. That's not sustainable, and that's why we have G5. -- asilvering (talk) 04:11, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Note that I put an ”in use” template on the judicial coup article and started trimming it before going to bed last night. This morning, I was surprised to see it taken to AfD. If important, notable but suspicious articles like this are to be deleted, AfD is the better route. Still, I am chagrined that I wasted 2 hours researching this with a template on it. —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 12:52, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Sorry, when I started my research the template wasn't up. When I said "hours", please trust me that I wasn't kidding. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🦋 16:19, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      This is an excellent illustration of what many of us have been saying in this thread - two good editors have spent hours of their time attempting to clean up content that is likely not rescuable because it is full of policy violations of the same sort that got the editor blocked in the first place. This is why G5 exists. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:30, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      No one is required to research content that has been moved to draftspace, and if it goes untouched for six months, it disappears anyway. However, if an editor wants to do the research, it's there for them to find. BD2412 T 17:06, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      The fear I have, if this content was in draftspace, is that a good-faith newbie (or even experienced editor) might look at it and go "Huh, that seems okay" and move it to mainspace. We can't actually enforce that anybody check the content. And, ultimately, I wouldn't support sanctioning somebody who was taken in by a touched-up (LLM?) article that had been WP:REFBOMBED like this, in the same way that we're not mad at people who fell for the old Doug Coldwell articles and GA-ed them. The sock put a lot of effort into falsifying sources and making these seem legitimate - but judging from the very first sentence of this article, where they cite an article that's about a completely different separate set of events but just so happens to include the words "Bangladesh" and "coup" it's very clear to me that this is not a legitimate article. GreenLipstickLesbian💌🦋 17:12, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Indeed. We have historically really struggled with this kind of thing. NPP and AfC reviewers cannot be expected to do all this - they're already overworked. And we don't have enough GLLs to get through them all either. -- asilvering (talk) 17:45, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Well let's say, hypothetically, that you had a one-click solution to move the article to draftspace, move-lock the page so that admin review would be required to restore it mainspace, and template the page with a warning that this was initially created by a blocked or banned editor, so there would be no confusion about its status, with a corresponding categorization, so that there would be an automatic notification if the template was removed out of process. BD2412 T 19:49, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      This seems more convoluted than just asking an admin to email you the deleted version as a reference and starting over. REAL_MOUSE_IRL talk 20:29, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      For one article, perhaps. If there are hundreds? BD2412 T 20:37, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Seems rare enough that someone would have hundreds of articles live with no substantial edits by others at the time of their block, but if that were to happen, no method of thoroughly checking them will scale IMO. REAL_MOUSE_IRL talk 20:44, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      "We have a simple policy for dealing with this. I don't like it, so I'm going to suggest that we create a whole different process with multiple steps of programming/coding required to replace it". BD, we get it. You think G5 is the worst thing since unsliced bread. But you are really Wikilawyering, assuming bad faith of other admins, and coming up with some frankly absurd hypothetical "solutions" to a issue that the majority doesn't believe is an issue at all. G5 is optional. If a sock somehow made a FA before being blocked that somehow didn't have substantive contributions from other editors and somehow completely checked out with regards to policy, then it wouldn't be G5'd. The vast majority of block-evading content created, however, is - again, calling a spade a spade - trash. Wikipedia may have no deadline, but it does only have volunteers, and suggesting that these volunteers be made to do literal hours (as GLL proved!) of work when two clicks could resolve the issue (with the subject, if it was truly notable, very relikely to be created by another editor in good standing) is not a good look. Wikipedia has issues that produce negative experiences for the encyclopedia's readers possibly starting with the fact GNG has come to be regarded as holy writ, but that might be just me but G5 is not one of them. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:13, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      No one is suggesting that volunteers be made to do a minute more of work. No one is required to work on drafts any more than they are required to work in any other space. However, drafts at least exist for those who choose to work on them. BD2412 T 22:34, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      95% of G5s are no-brainers. I think GreenLipstickLesbian has the right idea - take the occasional important edge cases to AfD for the community to decide. Or to do what I started to do, which was to cut the article back to a 2 to 3 paragraph stub with lots of references for future expansion. A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:33, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      This is not an edge case in terms of encyclopedic value - it is an article full of verifiability issues and resultant NPOV issues in a contentious topic. This is a situation where we are genuinely better off with no information rather than partially false information. The research, cleanup, and AfD are all a waste of community time - with the same time investment we could have written a better replacement. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:51, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      If an article needs to be cut down to a stub following an evaluation of all involved sources, it is going to be easier to just rewrite it from scratch. CMD (talk) 06:51, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      The question is: who will rewrite it from scratch? It’s easier for me to cut down an article down to a reliable stub than it is to create something de novo on a topic with which I’m unfamiliar. I’m not an admin so I won’t be able to see the original article. I’m willing to stubify the more important articles, but I’m not going to start over and build new articles. I’m not going to invest 10-20 hours creating each article. I’m a fixit guy, not a GA or FA writer.
      So which one of you is volunteering to write this article from scratch? Or do we just not carry this content for a few years? A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 13:18, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      It's not a matter of GA or FA. If I'm editing the existing work of others, it's a substantial time investment to double check existing content against references, while also figuring out what else references say, and why information is arranged as it is. Writing from scratch on the other hand, only requires step 2 of those 3. CMD (talk) 16:15, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Per GLL's analysis, I'm not sure it even is notable enough to be a standalone article. REAL_MOUSE_IRL talk 13:29, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • These articles will be written in due time by wikipedians in good standing, when those contributors deem it appropriate. By keeping material written by known bad actors, we encourage bad action. Urgency is a poor substitute for reasonable caution. If the pages' loss seems such a tragedy to User:A. B., perhaps they will edit outside their normal willingness to make sure they are recreated properly. BusterD (talk) 13:38, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Someone should close this rambling complaint. I don't see an outcome or agreement anywhere in sight. BusterD (talk) 13:42, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Got it. Loud and clear. —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 15:11, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Following the AfD closing as delete, I've gone back through the listed articles above and re-tagged a few. I did not tag those which seemed to have significant contributions from others, those which went through AfC, and one which has already been kept at AfD. The ones remaining were mostly related to Bangladesh, which is the topic which has been mentioned as being most affected by POV pushing, which might be indicative that problems were mostly present in this topic. I did not check the article sI didn't re-tag for copyvio however. I did sense check a couple of sources on Seal of the president of Bangladesh, but found similar to GreenLipstickLesbian that they often did not even mention the article topic. (Note that this article is not the National Emblem of Bangladesh, although small edits by others seem to have catted it assuming it was.) CMD (talk) 06:46, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    CheckUser consultation, March 2025

    [edit]

    The Arbitration Committee has received applications for CheckUser access and has reviewed them in consultation with the functionaries team. The Community is invited to evaluate the candidacy and comment at the consultation until 12:00, 31 March 2025 (UTC).

    On behalf of the Committee, Sdrqaz (talk) 12:18, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § CheckUser consultation, March 2025

    WP:3X unban request for User:TzarN64

    [edit]
    UNBANNED
    Consensus to unban, with WP:1RR restriction. asilvering (talk) 03:04, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This editor was blocked more than three years ago for disruptive editing, and ended up at a WP:3X ban for repeated block evasion. Since then, they've more than fulfilled the usual terms of the WP:SO and two CUs (in December and just now) have come back with no obvious evidence of block evasion. Text of their appeal below.

    In 2022, I got blocked for clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. i was disruptive, caused edit wars, made personal attacks, and even sockpuppeting. I made random disruptive, unsourced, and clearly not notable articles before when i socked. I completely understand why i got blocked in the first place, and i promise i won't do it again and start making helpful contributions to Wikipedia again. It has been for ever since i last sockpuppeted and made any disruptive edits, I'm not the same person anymore who makes disruptive edits to the enclyopedia and when caught just socking again. I genuinely want to contribute to wikipedia. I was so completely immature back then, and i'm just really sorry. I promise i have matured so much since then, and i'm ready to return to wikipedia and make useful contributions again. Thank you.

    Thanks for your consideration. -- asilvering (talk) 18:02, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    IP Admin wishes for IP To be blocked (College/School)

    [edit]
    Advice given. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:51, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User at User talk:116.255.47.44 wishes for their school to be blocked. Valorrr (talk) 00:20, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    If they want their own IP blocked from editing, they should email VRT. I"ll leave instructions on the IP's talk page. -- asilvering (talk) 00:58, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Tban appeal

    [edit]

    I'm back at AN to appeal my Tban from Maratha Confederacy. In my previous appeal [12], many editors were either hesitant or opined for weak support since only few days had passed since my conditional topic ban. However, now that more than 4 months have passed, there should be enough editing history to evaluate my behavior. Please also check my article creations two of which (Battle of Bharali (1615) & Turbak's invasion of Assam) are GA nominee and one might get passed sooner or later, and please see my participation in productive discussions mainly on Talk:Gupta Empire and have a good AfD participation [13] as well (I don't know if it counts in my litmus test or not). If this still isn't enough to regain trust, I'd be open to a weaker restriction, such as a 1RR limitation, to demonstrate a consistent pattern of constructive edits--eventually leading to a full lift of my topic ban. Best, – Garuda Talk! 14:44, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Support with 1RR restriction, appealable after three months (given their high rate of editing). Looking at Xtools report, @Garudam is using article talk and user talk more than before, and looks like good ratio of edits to talk. Interactions that I reviewed look collegial. Subsequent to writing this, analysis by others of the user's edits have displayed enough issues that I can no longer support this request. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 15:40, 25 March 2025 (UTC) edited 17:04, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose and recommend that the TBAN be expanded to cover Indian history; also would second CNMall41's recent advice to them to step back from closing AFDs. I spot-checked an article Garudam wrote and even nominated for GA, and unfortunately the issues that led to the editor's original indef block (under their old username, Melechha) persist. Note that the issues that I am aware of relate to POV/poor editing of history-content using iffy sources and 1RR won't address this concern. PS: Courcelles in their block mentioned use of socks; Garuda, can you please list any other accounts that you have used? Abecedare (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      @Abecedare among all my post-unblock edits, I have mostly made constructive contributions. I haven't closed any AfD discussions since CNMall41's advice. I'll quickly address the issues regarding the Battle of Mandalgarh on the talk page. As for the sock accounts, please see this---I haven't used any other accounts. Regarding my username and sock evasion violations, I have already paid the price and patiently waited for more than a year to restart my Wikipedia journey. If I repeat either of these mistakes, please bring it up, but all of this was in the past, and I have moved on. – Garuda Talk! 19:49, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Garudam, you recent edits in this area may be well-intentioned but IMO they have not all been constructive. For example:
    Cleaning up all this will require massive editorial resources, which are perhaps not even available. I hope we can prevent continued damage though. Abecedare (talk) 20:57, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Back then I may have made silly moves by adding non WP:HISTRS or WP:RAJ sources in Battle of Mandalgarh & Siege of Chittor simply because I wasn't aware of such policies and essays (these creations were before my block when I had less than 200 edits). Now if you ask me I can never contest for the addition of poor sources like Har Bilas Sarda (the page however reflects that he was a polymath but not a subject expert in historiography). In Battle of Mandalgarh and Banas I had actually added appropriate tags [14] to deal with the issues. The non RS sources which were collaterally reverted was gladly removed by Rawn3012 before I can look into it, there's no question that I'd have removed those sources as well which is evident through my another revert after months [15]. Basically my reasoning was that the use of inline templates and tags could have been a better approach to let other editors fill the gap in the meantime by replacing the dubious sources with academic ones. – Garuda Talk! 22:00, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Garudam, I don't know what you mean by "Back then" since the problems have demonstrably persisted, as I detail above. Both Battle of Bharali (1615) and Siege of Chittor, for example, were created after your unblock in Nov 2024. Abecedare (talk) 18:27, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for pointing out the issues regarding Battle of Bharali (1615), It's going through GA, your inputs would be helpful. I'll address the issues shortly. The Siege of Chittor was first incubated through draft in my blocked account but later it was imported to this account in November 2024. I'll take responsibility for it and have already proposed to merge Battle of Mandalgarh with it. – Garuda Talk! 19:03, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Update: In addition to problems with the articles that I spot-checked earlier (see here and here for details), which are largely still not resolved, similar issues have continued to arise with Garudam's editing during the course of this TBAN appeal. For example, here is a short analysis of close-paraphrasing issues in an article they moved to main space just yesterday:
    Latest example of WP:CLOP-violation (see also here)
    Original text (p. 454) Wikipedia article
    After brilliant naval success at Srigaht, Pratap Sinha planned to free Kamrupa from the Mughals. Following the impressive naval victory at Srighat, Ahom king Pratap Singha aimed to liberate Kamarupa from Mughal control.
    He first targeted Sualkuchi with an army reinforced by 10,000 archers and matchlock men and sixty big ships. His next target was Sualkuchi, where he deployed a reinforced army of 10,000 archers and matchlock men, supported by a fleet of sixty large ships.
    The Mughals failed to maintain their position and lost many war ships, transport boats and suffered huge causalities. The Mughals were unable to hold their position and suffered heavy losses, including numerous warships, transport boats, and significant casualties.
    The Ahoms got large spoils—300 ships, 160 swords, guns-big and small, two hundred hand grenades, besides gold and silver. The Ahoms secured substantial spoils from this campaign, which included 300 ships, 160 swords, various firearms (both large and small), 200 hand grenades, as well as gold and silver treasures.
    After Sualkuchi, the Barphukan and Koch King Bali Narayan turned towards Hajo. Following the victory at Sualkuchi, the Ahom commander Barphukan, in alliance with Koch King Bali Narayan, advanced towards Hajo.
    It was surrounded by the Ahoms and the Bengal governor, Abdus Salam, surrendered. The city was encircled by Ahom forces, leading to the surrender of Bengal's governor, Abdus Salam.
    The Ahoms captured immense treasure consisting of 200 guns (big and small), about 5,000 swords and 700 horses besides numerous pearls and jewelled ornaments. The Ahoms seized a substantial cache of treasure, including 200 firearms (large and small), approximately 5,000 swords, 700 horses, and a collection of pearls and jeweled ornaments.
    Note that the quoted text in the table are consecutive sentences in the wikipedia article and the book. And it goes on in this vein. Given the ongoing issues I would now support an ARBIPA TBAN or a project-wide block. Abecedare (talk) 23:29, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh dear. Well, three more and we can open a CCI... -- asilvering (talk) 16:24, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, that again looks like copy-paste-edit-publish. Valereee (talk) 16:28, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Clarification: Abecedare & Asilvering: The pre-existed article was mispelled thus it was moved to a correct AT, not a move to mainspace from draft. I have fixed these issues promptly.
    Original text (p. 454) Wikipedia article
    After brilliant naval success at Srigaht, Pratap Sinha planned to free Kamrupa from the Mughals. With the Mughal forces weakened after their defeat at Srighat, Ahom ruler Pratap Singha saw an opportunity to reclaim Kamarupa.
    He first targeted Sualkuchi with an army reinforced by 10,000 archers and matchlock men and sixty big ships. Setting his focus on Sualkuchi, he gathered a formidable army of 10,000 soldiers skilled in archery and matchlock firearms, supported by a fleet of sixty large warships.
    The Mughals failed to maintain their position and lost many war ships, transport boats and suffered huge causalities. Unable to withstand the Ahom offensive, the Mughals suffered a devastating defeat, losing a large number of warships, transport boats, and troops.
    The Ahoms got large spoils—300 ships, 160 swords, guns-big and small, two hundred hand grenades, besides gold and silver. The Ahoms claimed an immense haul of war spoils, seizing 300 ships, 160 swords, various firearms, 200 hand grenades, and a substantial amount of gold and silver.
    After Sualkuchi, the Barphukan and Koch King Bali Narayan turned towards Hajo. Building on their success at Sualkuchi, the Ahom forces, led by Barphukan and supported by Koch King Bali Narayan, set their sights on Hajo.
    It was surrounded by the Ahoms and the Bengal governor, Abdus Salam, surrendered. Surrounding the city, they launched a siege that ultimately compelled Abdus Salam, the governor of Bengal, to surrender.
    The Ahoms captured immense treasure consisting of 200 guns (big and small), about 5,000 swords and 700 horses besides numerous pearls and jewelled ornaments. With Hajo under their control, the Ahoms secured a wealth of spoils, including 200 firearms, nearly 5,000 swords, 700 horses, and an array of pearls and exquisite ornaments.
    Courtesy ping to @Elli, who set the restriction in the first place. -- asilvering (talk) 20:18, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Garudam, now the content you have written is far too far away from the source, and appears to have your own interpretations in it. Dympies (talk) 02:17, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose unban and Support extension of topic ban to cover ARBIPA - This appeal is deceptive, the user has been flagrantly violating their topic ban for example:
    1. On 21- 22 February 2025: *[16]
    1. 25-30 January 2025
    1. 20 December 2024

    25 November 2025

    In the last set of edits, they draftified an article that had been in the mainspace for years. This was highly disruptive and exactly what the ban was supposed to prevent and given the fact that their previous usernames were also inflammatory. I think their block needs to be extended to cover the entire WP:ARBIPA area given their history of disruption. Wareon (talk) 11:43, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    @Wareon: The first 5 set of diffs shows my reverts of sock edits and unrelated entries which doesn't get to pass WP:NLIST, we won't find any source either which groups the conflicts into a set for list relating to Bangladesh, from the talk page it can be seen that many editors have rightly echoed the voice [35]. For the diffs after that, I have to say that the Draft:Battle of Umberkhind was initially submitted by myself before my block when I had less than 100 edits, later another user started editing it and my watchlist popped up with these edits, unintentionally I reacted to them, for which I can only ask for a benifit of doubt. Since then (ie. when I had 200-250 edits) I haven't involved myself into any tban covering area. Lastly my previous username issue was already noted and sanctioned in my WP:NOTHERE block, I haven't changed my username to any other inflammatory name which could be a violation. – Garuda Talk! 12:17, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    These were topic ban violations. Your refusal to accept this further justifies the request to expand your topic ban to cover the whole WP:ARBIPA. Dympies (talk) 12:34, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I did not refuse to accept any violations, It's just some edits were made unintentionally (justification given above: as the draft was initially submitted by me a year and half ago) when I was evolving, when my edits were miniscule. – Garuda Talk! 13:08, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support WP:ARBIPA topic ban - The user has been disruptive not just in the Indian history area but also in the ARBIPA (Afghanistan, Pakistan and India) as whole. Their bludgeoning at Talk:Prayagraj [36][37] combined with poorly written and POV history additions to the said article, [38][39][40].As well as poor clerking at AfDs[41] 1 [42] I think the original ban is not enough. Dympies (talk) 12:26, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      The Talk:Prayagraj comments are far from bludgeoning. [43]: The closure was Tban'd and I responded all of the supporting comments as calmly as possible without going here and there [44][45][46]. Here I barely made two engaging comments. The further additions on the page is backed by putative sources, I'd urge to fellow editors for giving a quick read to Prayagraj#Gupta Empire and then give their opinions. For the AfD issues I tried to volunteer myself by closing and relisting the discussions, mostly I did good [47][48][49][50][51][52], however some as questioned by CNMall41 were instantly heeded and I didn't close or relisted any AfD since then, this was endorsed, although It should have been indeed done at the hands of an admin. – Garuda Talk! 13:04, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      It is bludgeoning, you have made 23 comments there. The section on the Gupta Empire has statements such as "The Vishnu Purana provides an intriguing reference". Regarding your clerking of AfDs in ARBIPA, this relisting was not needed as the consensus was already clear. Dympies (talk) 14:31, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      No please go through WP:BLUDGEON: "Sometimes, a long comment or replying multiple times is perfectly acceptable or needed for consensus building." The reason why I made 23 replies alone is because I was addressing the issues of misleading edit summaries and misinterpretations of guidelines by another user, which later payed off as clarification for other editors [53][54][55]. May I ask what's wrong with "The Vishnu Purana provides an intriguing reference"? Scholars are free to interpret any texts. – Garuda Talk! 14:55, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      @Dympies, that relist was also done before the comment by CNMall41. -- asilvering (talk) 16:56, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I pointed that out because Garudam cited that relist in their comment as being "good". Dympies (talk) 00:15, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Speaking for myself, that one looks subjective to me, we can argue if it was bad or good (given the last calculated comment + 3 !votes aren't generally considered as "consensus"). Upon going through their relists [56][57][58] and keeps [59][60] it seems like mostly worked out well. Silent ink (talk) 10:56, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Even so, I take the responsibility for the closures and relists, I can only ask to kindly look on my good side that I backed off. Best, – Garuda Talk! 18:52, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per Rsjaffe. Considering mostly constructive contributions he needs to be given some slack, also he's been pretty civil and calm at discussions (like Talk:Gupta Empire#Undue origin?). However I haven't looked at other discussions, Talk:Prayagraj has problems from multiple editors but it isn't necessarily bad either. Waleed (talk) 13:51, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak support with 1RR as some issues raised above or even come back here again after 6 months completion of the block. I don't know about any violations but overall his 8k+ edits give a shady clear picture if not good. I will note that SPI reports [61][62][63] filed by him have been very helpful. NXcrypto Message 16:59, 26 March 2025 (UTC) agree with Rsjaffe[64]NXcrypto Message 17:00, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose and expand TBan to cover the whole area. Agree with Abecedare and Wareon. You were unblocked merely 4 months ago, but pretending that nothing happened. This is not a collaborative approach. desmay (talk) 00:41, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      This appeal was made in consideration of previous Tban appeal [65], where editors (involving admins) suggested to come back after 3 months. – Garuda Talk! 18:57, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is difficult to understand why you are appealing the restriction so often before the standard 6 months period. While I am in favor of expanding topic ban to cover the whole ARBIPA, it makes sense to support reinstatement of indefinite block given the repeated violation of the unblock condition, as the editor is clearly making the same mistakes that led to the condition being imposed in the first place. Raymond3023 (talk) 03:15, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose repeal, and support extending TBAN to ARBIPA. In addition to behavioural issues found by Wareon, Dympies and Abecedare, Garudam has encouraged a user to make edits to disputed content under discussion [66]. Whether it is strictly against the rules or not, it is bad form, and it goes to show that Garudam is willing to ignore best practices in order to achieve their goal/push their POV. With everything I've read in this thread, it seems this user has a hard time collaborating and therefore I support an indefinite topic ban from the contentious ARBIPA topic, broadly construed. TurboSuperA+(connect) 08:48, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      While its not against any rules, it's probably not very well thought out for you to !vote here, especially as your link points to a dispute regarding your own conduct which resulted in a sanction. This could very easily be seen as WP:GAME, or attempting to get revenge on another editor who you feel has personally wronged you. In closing the thread you initiated here, you were warned by abecedare to let this go at the risk of further potential sanctions. Dfadden (talk) 09:35, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      No, the link does not point to a dispute regarding my own conduct. It points to a comment Garudam made on a user's Talk page where they encouraged them to make changes to disputed content under active discussion. I don't see how WP:GAME applies, can you quote the relevant part?
      Why do you think Garudam has personally wronged me? It wasn't Garudam who started the ANI process against me and it wasn't Garudam who voted for an indef ban, I have nothing against Garudam personally. I do take issue with their behaviour, though. I genuinely think it is disruptive and not conducive to collaboration. Clearly, I am not alone in this. TurboSuperA+(connect) 10:07, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      It points to a comment Garudam made on a user's Talk page where they encouraged them to make changes to disputed content under active discussion. And that directly references the ANI related to your disputed RfC closures. In that ANI discussion which can be found Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1182, you said of Garudam: When the close didn't go their way, despite them being the only editor with a complaint against the close, they threatened the closer (which in this case happens to be me) with a TBAN unless they got their way. When voorts supported a TBAN against you in that discussion, you again singled out Garudam Garuda complains about a close that otuer editors have thanked me for. So I don't think the cases are as clear cut as you try to present them.
      Let me be clear, I am not defending Garudam's conduct or otherwise here. I am trying to let you know that based on the negative comments you have made against Garudam in the ANI regarding your own closes, you have been involved in a content dispute with this editor. Now when that editor requested a review of a sanction against them, you are advocating we impose harsher sanction. Consider how that looks to others when you have repeatedly been encouraged to drop the stick.
      At the risk of hypocracy, I will now do the same and leave this matter be. Its up to you whether you choose to heed my advice. Dfadden (talk) 11:38, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Yet you're trying to do everything to get your revenge, by filing a frivolous SPI not only on him but on me as well [67]. This is really concerning WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. Mithilanchalputra(Talk) 04:02, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Active participation in SPIs, AFDs & RMs? Yeah, we may need him. But procedurally I have to advice you to withdraw and show us your another thousand constructive edits until the time passes.Silent ink (talk) 13:42, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support and lift overall ban. This feels like a massive reaction to the edits done in the grey area. I don't think all of it is good but it doesn't look so poor that we tear down an experienced editor who so far has been actively working in all projects in good faith. I had many disagreement with Garudam regarding constantly questioning and attacking my articles in the past, but that only helped me to understand and reach the qualities to the new heights. All I can say is that their constructive to destructive ratio is solid 99:1 and as a fellow PCR I saw their active clerking in reviewing the edits as well [68]. Mithilanchalputra(Talk) 04:06, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support reinstating indef block - Not only is this appeal premature, there have been numerous violations of unblock condition as highlighted by a few above, therefore the reinstatement of an indefinite block would be justified. Alternatively, a complete topic ban covering the said topic area would work as well. Shankargb (talk) 04:39, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support indef block or ARBIPA topic ban, per above. I note that unnecessary bludgeoning by this user has only made his appeal even more unconvincing. Devopam (talk) 08:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agreed with the above stands in support. Now that I think of it, this seems coordinated wikilawyering, often done by throwing a bunch of complicated diffs containing some guideline issues. And when countered, we just see more diffs pouring in, whether they even contain a real problem or not. As for the appeal, I don't think they've always been in a golden light, so I'd say Garuda has my weak support—so long as they adhere to their commitment. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 11:08, 28 March 2025 (UTC)Sock puppet blocked. Shankargb (talk) 23:15, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Don't misrepresent the evidence provided above and stop casting WP:ASPERSIONS. All the diffs demonstrate a real problem with the user. Dympies (talk) 11:35, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • ::First of all, what you consider a misinterpretation is actually a clarification. You claim that the user has been disruptive throughout ARBIPA [70] by providing diffs of "bludgeoning." Now, I want your explanation—where exactly does this diff reflect your accusation? What exactly do you even consider "bludgeoning"? Please stop misleading us with your so-called "problematic diffs" and consider striking your accusations. WP:BLUDGEONING states: To falsely accuse someone of bludgeoning is considered uncivil and should be avoided. You didn't even bother to respond to their clarification of your accusation—how exactly is making numerous comments alone unhelpful? Nor did you explain what issues exist in the Gupta Empire section. Just try not to game the system—
      we're not dumb enough to follow suit and skip checking your diffs. To other users: IMO, this is completely unacceptable. We see these editors in conflict trying to take down others without providing substantial evidence of their conduct. Especially in the case of Dympies, a boomerang should be on the way. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 12:19, 28 March 2025 (UTC)Sock puppet blocked. Shankargb (talk) 23:15, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      You are apparently Making this thread about yourself with your poor behavior. Making 23 comments in an RfC is bludgeoning.[71][72][73] I didn't need to add all the diffs (there would be 23 of them!) as the user's problematic conduct was evident, in fact they were badgering one user with their repeated comments who actually told them to stop harassing them [74] The problems at Gupta Empire section are self evident, that statement was to demonstrate how problematic it was, "provides an intriguing reference" is editorialising.
      Who's " we" here? And why are you getting so agitated over an unban appeal that is unrelated to you? Dympies (talk) 14:09, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Apparently poor behavior? You still haven't answered where exactly the RM diff contains bludgeoning. You're just throwing out allegations, overlooking the critique, and then saying "poor behavior"—that won't work. Anyone can easily figure out from the RFC thread [75] if sufficient time would be spent. It mainly shows two users in disagreement—one is apparently Garudam, and the other seems to be Abo Yemen. I have personally made many comments on talk pages to clarify points that can ultimately change our perception, and I see nothing wrong with that. Moreover, where do you find such limitations in WP:BLUD? In response to your accusations, Garudam has explained why he has commented in an ample amount, which offers a broader perspective than what you perceive. Re-evaluating your diffs, I will again show the involved users how you are repeatedly making false claims and ask you to reconsider withdrawing your accusations of bludgeoning:
      • [76] – This seems helpful for this.
      • [77] – Seems helpful in making other users aware of forum shopping.
      • [78] – I don't understand in the slightest what makes it an extra valent comment. Shouldn't one counter another editor with sources? I can see the last sum of opposing !votes might have been influenced by that comment in the RfC.
      • "Provides an intriguing reference" is editorializing. – You do realize all of it is backed by sources? Unless you want to challenge the historians and win the case against them, it certainly isn't problematic.
      "Who's "we" here? And why are you getting so agitated over an unban appeal that is unrelated to you?" – Irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, it's as irrelevant to you as it is to me, but seeing a desperate attempt to scattershot unproblematic diffs just makes me wonder who's really agitated. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 14:51, 28 March 2025 (UTC)Sock puppet blocked. Shankargb (talk) 23:15, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Instead of derailing this thread with your problematic advocacy of Garudam, you should better how explain how you found this discussion given that you have never edited this noticeboard ever before. [79] Shankargb (talk) 15:18, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      You're going to ask this specific question to everyone [80][81] who has never been on this noticeboard ever again? Please stop elongating this thread. "You should better explain how you found this discussion, given that you have never edited this noticeboard before.": What? Why should I? What if I'm a user contributions stalker? What if I visit the noticeboard routinely? What if I just jumped in here out of nowhere? How does that even concern you? Wikilawyering is not fun! Instead of derailing this thread with your problematic advocacy of Garudam: You had no concern here at all except waiting for Dympies to clarify their false accusations—yet you label an important question as "derailing"? If we go by your logic, isn't everyone who supports their ban appeal also an advocate of Garudam? You don't even want others to point out poor diff evidence? Why? Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 05:35, 29 March 2025 (UTC)Sock puppet blocked. Shankargb (talk) 23:15, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per above, I think the editor has proved more than enough that why they should be unbanned. Mostly articles published by him are Ok-ish to good. Shakakarta (talk) 13:19, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support- per Gaurdam. Sukumar05 (talk) 14:54, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That does not answer my question given your zero activity before. Shankargb (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose and reinstate block. While ARBIPA topic ban is a viable option, I am not finding any activity from this editor outside this area to find him beneficial for this encyclopedia. He has proven he cannot edit this area without being disruptive. Orientls (talk) 15:52, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Close with no increased sanction and warn Garudam about further TBAN violations. While the TBAN violations are made out in the diffs provided above, I don't see this continued discussion and the acrimony that it is causing between editors as at all helpful. To use the often used quote, this discussion is generating more heat than light. TarnishedPathtalk 23:20, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I would only add that per suggestions by editors below that any future appeals should be in a minimum of six months time. TarnishedPathtalk 23:21, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Expand topic ban to cover WP:ARBIPA, broadly construed, per the additional evidence provided by Abecedare. TarnishedPathtalk 07:25, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Expand topic ban to cover ARBIPA. Following the discovery of their topic ban violations, and their continued display of irresponsible behavior, I believe it is better to expand the topic ban. --1990'sguy (talk) 03:00, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Indef topic ARBIPA ban - While I note that the user is now withdrawing the appeal after major demand to broaden their topic ban or simply block them, the withdrawal would have made more sense if it was done after the very early opposes. Instead, they have tried their best to present themselves in good light contrary to the available evidence. In light of additional evidence presented by Abecedare, it is evident that the user is introducing content with copyright issues even during the appeal. Another GA nomination such as this clearly demonstrates their incompetence. A full topic ban is necessary at this stage. Lorstaking (talk) 06:44, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Indef block or ARBIPA topic ban - Given their continued violations of their topic ban and the very basic Wikipedia policies. I don't see how this editor would benefit this website. ZDRX (User) | (Contact) 05:04, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Indef block or Indef ARBIPA topic ban per ZDRX: They are still doing the stuff they got indef'd for in the first place and are showing clear incompetence, especially with their multiple bad GA noms and repeated copyright violations. 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 20:50, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Withdrawal

    [edit]

    Thanks for the supports and even opposes for which I'll look into myself and try to improve completly as I should. If I may, I'd want to withdraw for now if it's feasible @Asilvering? Pinging them as uninvolved so far. But anyone can put into this (Abecedare and others). May I appeal after the 6 months of my unblock? – Garuda Talk! 19:52, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I closed this when I saw the request to withdraw, since such a request sounded like low-hanging fruit. I didn't even read the thread to see that there were comments about extending the tban. At this point, I don't think you can unilaterally withdraw. This needs a closer with the time and inclination to read thru the thread and decide if a larger topic ban is or isn't needed. Perhaps the community needs more time to discuss. If tis is closed by someone else, I would say you want to wait 6 months from now, not 6 months from your unblock. That isn't written in stone, but my observation has been that if people think you're rushing your request, they're going to oppose. In any case, I've reversed my closure. Floquenbeam (talk) 20:12, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe it can just archive unactioned if no one wants to wade through the discussion. Valereee (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    At this rate, I don't think it will be inactive enough to be archived for quite some time. I'm a bit tempted to close it now, just to stop all these accusations from getting out of hand. Sorry Garuda, this must feel really rough. I think... we might need someone with goggles to take a look at this. -- asilvering (talk) 20:32, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    While withdrawing unilaterally is no longer an option, expression of desire to withdraw the request in good faith is something that will be looked upon favorably by the community signed, Rosguill talk 20:41, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for your concerns and suggestions @Floquenbeam, Valereee, Asilvering, and Rosguill: I had a doubt that it'll be outrightly closed given the opposition I face, but I get it, this could go naturally. I'd also specially thank Dfadden and Malik-Al-Hind for indirectly or directly taking stance for me or just giving a quick reviews of diffs. I'm fine with appealing after 6 months from now, if it gets closed un-actioned. – Garuda Talk! 20:51, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • While I too don't agree with the reasoning, and the back and forth, in some the supports/opposes above, as I have detailed here, here and in the my updated comment above, the problems with the user's editing are ongoing and not restricted to the area they are currently TBANed from. So I'd appreciate a close of the appeal based on the merits rather than a (very understandable!) TLDR close. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 23:42, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Given the close paraphrasing issue (though somewhat addressed) and my unintentional topic ban violation, I do think a sanction is inevitable. Can I request a self-imposed or self-proposed partial block from the article mainspace? I haven't engaged in any kind of "bludgeoning" on the talk pages, and if given a chance, I could work on resolving the CLOPs issue through my drafts. I just want to focus on my interest in the Gupta Empire, and to be honest, this appeal was made in the hope of making my account cleaner by seeking the lifting of the topic ban. I had no immediate plans to resume editing around the Maratha Confederacy topic area. Thanks for everything---this will probably be my last comment before I take an indefinite hiatus. – Garuda Talk! 21:56, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      We could call it "self-imposed", but given, the community discussion above, in practice I can't imagine any admin would lift that unilaterally or at your request. But I think your suggestion of a pblock from mainspace is a good one, better than either a broader tban or a full indef. It would give you an opportunity to work on the copyright/pov issues, which saves effort on the parts of other editors and would provide evidence that you've understood the issues.
      While no one has called for that specific outcome above, I believe it will satisfy the consensus forming there about the nature of your edits. I'll happily close this thread with a cban from mainspace if no one specifically objects to this reading of consensus in the next little while. -- asilvering (talk) 22:15, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      WP:AN closures are not about imposing overnight ideas, but to analyze the existing consensus. What you are announcing would be a WP:SUPERVOTE. There is a clear-cut consensus for indef block or ARBIPA topic ban. If you still believe that this ill-informed self-proposed sanction from the OP "will satisfy the consensus forming there about the nature" of his edits then you must ping every single participant of this thread, and give them at least 24 hours. I would recommend against such a waste of time though. Shankargb (talk) 23:15, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • asilvering - Cban from mainspace is justified. Reading the thread I was going to close with an Indef block as the consensus appears to be that they are just not getting it and shows repeated disruptive behaviour. Happy for you to close with the CBan as an alterantive. FOARP (talk) 08:13, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wrong FOARP. It is not justified because nobody supported a proposal to CBAN from mainspace. Though there is consensus for indef block or topic ban. You should check again. Thanks Wareon (talk) 08:42, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Bans are supposed to be preventative. If a ban from mainspace prevents the disruption, and more to the point Garuda has consented to it, I'm not going to see many people who argued for either a indef or a TBAN arguing with the outcome. TarnishedPathtalk 09:39, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's also inaccurate. People have deemed Garudam to be incapable of editing ARBIPA (Afghanistan, Pakistan and India) topic, or Wikipedia as a whole. A mere CBAN from mainspace is highly lenient and entirely misrepresents the community consensus. Wareon (talk) 10:48, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Report of Abuse and Fraud by Administrator LuchoCR

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    and now wholly done with LuchoCR having responded and the reporter being INDEFFED. Star Mississippi 01:45, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    We're done here.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:50, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Dear Wikipedia Team,

    I am reaching out to report a Wikipedia administrator, LuchoCR, who is abusing their power by unfairly blocking accounts and then demanding payments to restore access.

    My account (Merquisedec1996) has been blocked under the accusation of "multiple account abuse and block evasion," which is completely false. After the block, LuchoCR contacted me, demanding $500 USD to regain access. I have evidence of this behavior, including screenshots and communication records.

    Additionally, I have discovered that I am not the only victim. This user has been using the same scam on many other people, arbitrarily blocking their accounts and demanding money for unblocking them. He is using the phone number (Redacted) to carry out these scams.

    I request an urgent investigation into this matter and appropriate action against LuchoCR. I am willing to provide all necessary evidence to support my report.

    I look forward to your prompt response and action to stop this abuse within the Wikipedia community.

    Best regards,

    Merquisedec1996 Merquisedec1996 (talk) 16:02, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    This reeks of chatbot. I'm also redacting the alleged phone number on the ground that if it's wrong, whoever's on the other end is likely to get very irrelevant nastygrams from trolls. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 16:05, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Merquisedec1996, LuchoCR is not an admin on en.wikipedia.org. They are on es.wikipedia.org, a different project. Is that where this is happening? If so, there's nothing we can do for you. That's a separate project and you'd need to reach out to them. Note that this is an incredibly common scam, though. An admin blocks an account and then a completely different, unrelated scammer claiming to be that admin reaches out to the blocked user in an attempt to scam money out of them. --Yamla (talk) 16:10, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Yamla: from what I can tell this is indeed based on es.wp; Merquisedec1996 is indef'd there as a sockpuppet. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 16:12, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I tell you that the person who uses that account is the correct one and does so because he contacts from his Wikipedia account via email to ask for money, well, what does he block? Aside from that, I have a recorded call asking me for money and I am not the first to do this since he sees that it is a publication or something from a company or something from an artist. Many people come. If someone could contact a Spanish administrator to proceed with their investigation because he is a recent user and I am from 2017, they are two very different things. Merquisedec1996 (talk) 16:20, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No. You need to reach out to a Spanish admin. We only deal with matters related to the English language version of Wikipedia here. Note that nothing you have said convinces me this is actually LuchoCR doing this, though nothing you've said rules it out. Regardless, there is nothing we can do for you. Your problem is with a different project. --Yamla (talk) 16:23, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Even if we did that, this is not a matter for the English-language Wikipedia. If anything it'd be escalated to Meta for a global lock, and I find the idea that someone is impersonating LuchoCR more plausible than LuchoCR trying to run a scam. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 16:23, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    You are required to notify the person you are reporting, as prominently reminded in the top of this page. I have done so for you this time.
    I recommend discussing this with @LuchoCR directly, as this doesn’t involve English Wikipedia and, as others have noted, this is probably a scam being run by someone posing as LuchoCR.
    There is nothing more we can do here on English Wikipedia. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:16, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    As I told you, it doesn't let me argue or speak or write in Spanish, not even with anyone. Merquisedec1996 (talk) 16:21, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    And what do you expect us to do about it? en.wp and es.wp are completely separate projects with their own standards and practices. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 16:24, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Looking into this, I see that:
    1. LuchoCR blocked Merquisedec yesterday, with the rationale (loosely summarised/poorly translated) "Abuse of multiple accounts/block evasion: vandalism, intimidation, harassment, and personal attacks";
    2. the block did not revoke talk page or email access, and Merquise has already requested an unblock on their user talk page at es.wp;
    3. It's highly unlikely an es.wp functionary (he holds CU rights over there from all appearances) would throw it away to try and bilk someone out of $500.
    I stand by mine and Yamla's belief that this is someone pretending to be LuchoCR doing a hideously poor job of extorting money out of some random guy he blocked. (Given he's still performing CU blocks over there today, the idea that his account got pwned also doesn't pass the laugh test.) —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 16:40, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
    • Just a note that LuchoCR responded on their talk and asked to have their response recorded here: The discussion was closed without giving me a chance to defend myself. Indeed, everything stated there is false; the user is harassing users via IP addresses, and although he claims to have a phone call between him and me, it is false. The phone number displayed here and on es.wikipedia is not mine. It seems that the individual searched for "LuchoCR" on Facebook and found this page, which I do not own, nor am I the person. I would appreciate it if this response could be linked to the discussion thread so that it is on record that I absolutely reject these accusations, and if they persist, I ask the administrators to take similar measures to those taken on es.wikipedia against this abuser. Pura vida. LuchoCR (talk) 2:35 pm, Yesterday (UTC−4) copied over by Valereee (talk) 12:49, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Reporting User:Dorsetonian

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    Content dispute. Dorsetonian wll not be sanctioned per Noob3.0 Fortuna, Imperatrix Mundi 19:29, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Hello, I would like to report this User:Dorsetonian for his constant trolling and edit warring against me. I made good edits to BBC Radio, Shine a Little Love, and Death of Diana, Princess of Wales, and all he does is keep trolling me and undo my good edits for no specific reason. Please can you block him from editing. 82.19.40.217 (talk) 19:08, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    He's undoing your edits because what you're writing is all wrong. For BBC Radio, you keep replacing it with the regular BBC logo, which is completely wrong, the Shine album HAS been released in the U.S., and you removed a video file of Bill Clinton talking about Princess Diana's death. These can't be classified as "good edits". NoobThreePointOh (talk) 19:24, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Rollback requests...

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    REQUEST QUEUE IS BEING WORKED
    Nothing more to do here. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 02:05, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Rollback requests now span a month back, can someone please review if possible? Valorrr (talk) 21:16, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    @Valorrr Why is there a centralized venue for rollback requests? Its very easy to do a manual rollback. DotesConks (talk) 23:40, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I assume Valorrr is referring to Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Rollback, given they posted their own request today. While the oldest request is indeed a month old, the second-oldest is 9 days - which suggests the backlog is far closer to a week than it is a month, and that one request sitting there is an outlier. Daniel (talk) 23:55, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes I was, sorry. Valorrr (talk) 00:17, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Valorrr You don't really need rollback. It takes just a few seconds more to revert to a previous edit before all the vandalism. DotesConks (talk) 01:46, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Makes you have Wikipedia:Huggle Valorrr (talk) 01:51, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Screen readers on ANI

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    Situation resolved. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:32, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I occasionally like to browse through AN/I when I'm bored, and see what drama is going on in the Wikipedia world. I occasionally use a screenreader, and this report is currently unreadable due to the line of X's. I'd really appreciate it if an admin could remove them as I don't believe I can do so without violating TPO (especially considering it's an admin noticeboard). I'd also like some clarification on if this is an appropriate exception to TPO or if I should avoid doing this in the future. JarJarInks٩(◕_◕)۶Tones essay 21:35, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

     Done. I think it's in the area of "fixing layout/format errors". There were also two(ish) syntax typos related to links, so I fixed those as well. DMacks (talk) 21:58, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Reports like this are important for maintaining accessibility. Thank you, and feel free to comment when there are issues in the future. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:35, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, but it should be on the talk page. Fortuna, Imperatrix Mundi 23:50, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I think this is fine. Few people check noticeboard talk pages. We don't get notices like this very often. Liz Read! Talk! 03:17, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Protection + Block request for duck

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    DUCK SOUP
    Socks blocked, articles semiprotected for now. If semi doesn't work, request WP:ECP. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:03, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    For some reason i can't send a protection request.. maybe because I'm too new. Please protect Persepolis F.C. (women) and Asian Club Championship and AFC Champions League Elite records and statistics for at least one year. The blocked sock, User:Herostars will back every one or two weeks using new accounts. Mohebiana and Ramshirtt are his last ones. Banning this accounts will never help. We need a at least one year protection. If more information needed please let me know! Edard Socceryg (talk) 14:31, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    I have semi'ed both for six months due to the long term disruption. If you haven't already, please file an SPI for the new accounts. Star Mississippi 16:44, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Star Mississippi Is this protection enough? Sock edited the articles after the protection too. Maybe Pending changes can help? Edard Socceryg (talk) 23:21, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    If semi is not enough, then one should go for requesting extended confirmed protection. However after taking a look it seems semi is enough. -- Least Action (talk) 10:01, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    ضجه بزن حقیر کودن Ramshirtt (talk) 17:48, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Google translates that as "Shout, you stupid bastard." Maybe it would be better translated as "Cry, you stupid bastard." Either way it seems to merit a block for that editor, whatever happens to the sockpuppetry case. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:14, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Pending a SPI for a more permanent solution, I have blocked @Ramshirtt one week for personal attacks (see also their talk page) and @Mohebiana one week for edit warring (14+ reverts!). — rsjaffe 🗣️ 18:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Star Mississippi @Rsjaffe I didn't filed a SPI for this two new ones. Can't you simply block them as duck? (same edits and behavior after getting blocked). In Persian Wikipedia we used a higher page protection to solve the problem. But idk if that's what is needed in a bigger Wikipedia. Edard Socceryg (talk) 23:35, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    request the deletion of a fake Wikipedia page created under my name, "Roshan Shrestha."

    [edit]
    NFA WaggersTALK 15:25, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Dear Wikipedia Administrators,

    I would like to request the deletion of a fake Wikipedia page created under my name, "Roshan Shrestha." The page contains unreliable sources, unverifiable claims, and violates Wikipedia's notability guidelines. Despite the PROD tag, I request that this page be reviewed for immediate deletion under Wikipedia’s deletion policies as it is misleading and defamatory.

    Supporting Evidence: - I am a journalist and owner of Bethel Media House Private Limited, and my official website is khojsamachar.com. - The page does not reflect verified information, and its content is fabricated.

    Please take the necessary action to review and delete the page. Thank you for your assistance.

    Sincerely, Roshan Shrestha Rohanshresrha (talk) 14:41, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    You put a speedy deletion tag, not a Proposed Deletion(PROD) tag. You seem to be a different person than that described in Roshan Shrestha. That describes a model and actor, not a journalist. 331dot (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Based on the information you have provided, it seems like the text at Roshan Shrestha is simply about a different person by the same name. I don't see anything in the page that could be considered "defamatory" one way or another. signed, Rosguill talk 14:49, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for your response, 331dot.
    I understand that the page may describe a person with the same name as mine. However, I would like to highlight several concerns that question the reliability and notability of the information presented on the page:
    1. **Lack of Verified Sources and Notability:**
    The page does not include any official or verifiable sources that confirm who this Roshan Shrestha is. There are no social media links, news articles from notable or reliable Nepali news portals, or any content that clearly establishes this person's identity and notability.
    2. **Potential Misuse of Name:**
    Since my name, "Roshan Shrestha," is frequently searched on Google due to my role as a journalist and media house owner, I am concerned that this page might be taking advantage of that fact by using my name inaccurately.
    3. **Unclear Identity of the Subject:**
    The page fails to provide any strong evidence about who exactly the person being described (a supposed model or actor) is. It remains unclear and unverifiable, which risks confusing readers and misrepresenting information.
    Based on these points, I respectfully request that the page be reviewed for deletion under Wikipedia’s guidelines for non-notable and unverifiable content.
    Thank you for your time and consideration.
    Best regards,
    Roshan Shrestha (Journalist and Media House Owner) Rohanshresrha (talk) 14:57, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The article as written cites several different news websites. I'm not an expert on Nepali media or language, but the cited sources give the impression of professionality at a glance, which is essentially all we ask of a WP:NEWSORG absent evidence of misinformation or paid placement. I'll note that the photos provided of Shrestha across the articles seem to consistently portray the same person, further undermining the argument that this is a hoax of some kind.
    If you're confident that the sources in question genuinely aren't reliable (and that you can demonstrate that clearly such that others will be persuaded by your arguments), you can proceed to nominate the article for WP:AfD, the standard process for requesting deletion of an article on notability grounds. We are not going to take any special action here at AN unless there's actual libel or other defamatory text. If it turns out that there is another Rohan Shrestha that is more notable than you and it affects your SEO, I'm afraid there's nothing that we at Wikipedia can do about it (after all, we're equally accountable to the other Rohan; if they're notable, they're notable). signed, Rosguill talk 15:04, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    "Thank you for your response, Rosguill.
    I understand your perspective, and I appreciate the clarification. However, I would like to elaborate on why I believe that the sources in the article may not meet Wikipedia's reliability and notability standards:
    Lack of Reliable and Independent Sources:
    The news articles cited in the Wikipedia page do not come from recognized, mainstream, or independent media organizations in Nepal. Most of the cited sources are from little-known websites that often do not follow professional journalism standards and could be considered unreliable.
    Unclear Identity and Misleading Photos:
    While the photos seem to be consistent, there is no concrete evidence that the person in question is notable. There are no well-established social media accounts, interviews, or verifiable content that can confirm who this person is.
    SEO and Name Confusion:
    My concern stems from the fact that my name (Roshan Shrestha), which is well-known due to my media presence as a journalist, may be unintentionally associated with this individual, affecting my online reputation. This could be a case of mistaken identity.
    Based on these points, I will review the Articles for Deletion (AfD) process and follow the appropriate steps to request deletion if necessary.
    Thank you for your time and guidance." Rohanshresrha (talk) 15:11, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    This is not the place to make your case. Please follow WP:AfD. --Yamla (talk) 15:13, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, it is possible that this individual could be mistaken for you. But that is neither "defamatory"(a deliberate effort to smear your reputation) nor "misleading"(a deliberate effort to deceive). With 8 billion humans on this planet, it is inevitable that more than one may have the same name. 331dot (talk) 15:14, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    "Thank you for your response, Yamla
    I understand your perspective, and I appreciate the clarification. However, I would like to point out a specific issue with one of the cited sources in the article that may highlight why I believe the page is misleading and does not meet Wikipedia's reliability and notability standards:
    Misleading Source (Rohan vs. Roshan Confusion):
    One of the links in the article actually refers to an Indian artist associated with Ranveer Singh, and the name mentioned there is Rohan Shrestha, not Roshan Shrestha. You can see this in the following link:
    Ranveer Singh’s lovely memories with Oprah Winfrey and Rohan Shrestha
    Please pay close attention to the difference in spelling: Rohan and Roshan are two different names, but it seems there has been some mix-up here. The confusion over the letter S in their names creates a misleading impression that these are the same individuals. This source, therefore, appears irrelevant and misleading when used in the article about Roshan Shrestha.
    Name Confusion and Potential Misleading Information:
    This confusion contributes to my concern that the article might be unintentionally creating a case of mistaken identity, which affects my online presence and SEO. My name, Roshan Shrestha, is associated with my work as a journalist, and the inaccurate information in this article could harm my reputation.
    Based on this evidence, I will review the Articles for Deletion (AfD) process and follow the appropriate steps if necessary. I wanted to bring this specific source-related issue to your attention for further consideration.
    Thank you for your time and guidance." Rohanshresrha (talk) 15:19, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Rohanshresrha, STOP. There's nothing we can do for you here. You need to stop posting here. You also need to stop using AI chatbots. --Yamla (talk) 15:22, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    If you are going to argue for the deletion of this article, focus your arguments on Wikipedia policies. Wikipedia has exactly zero interest in your online reputation and SEO. 331dot (talk) 15:23, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Please remember not to use ChatGPTs or other LLMs to write your comments for you. signed, Rosguill talk 15:18, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    "Thank you for your response, Rosguill.
    I understand your perspective, and I appreciate the clarification. However, I would like to point out a specific issue with one of the cited sources in the article that may highlight why I believe the page is misleading and does not meet Wikipedia's reliability and notability standards:
    Misleading Source (Rohan vs. Roshan Confusion):
    One of the links in the article actually refers to an Indian artist associated with Ranveer Singh, and the name mentioned there is Rohan Shrestha, not Roshan Shrestha. You can see this in the following link:
    Ranveer Singh’s lovely memories with Oprah Winfrey and Rohan Shrestha
    Please pay close attention to the difference in spelling: Rohan and Roshan are two different names, but it seems there has been some mix-up here. The confusion over the letter S in their names creates a misleading impression that these are the same individuals. This source, therefore, appears irrelevant and misleading when used in the article about Roshan Shrestha.
    Name Confusion and Potential Misleading Information:
    This confusion contributes to my concern that the article might be unintentionally creating a case of mistaken identity, which affects my online presence and SEO. My name, Roshan Shrestha, is associated with my work as a journalist, and the inaccurate information in this article could harm my reputation.
    Based on this evidence, I will review the Articles for Deletion (AfD) process and follow the appropriate steps if necessary. I wanted to bring this specific source-related issue to your attention for further consideration.
    Thank you for your time and guidance." Rohanshresrha (talk) 15:18, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Linking an existing sockpuppeteer with a cross-wiki abuse global block?

    [edit]

    Howdy all,

    I recently stumbled across @AramilFeraxa:'s recent block of Breath1Fire for cross-wiki abuse - having taken a look at their edits, I'm reasonably sure Breath1Fire is the same user as SelfStarter2, a known sockpuppeteer. Filing an SPI for Breath1Fire seems utterly pointless, as they've already been gblocked; however, SelfStarter2 and his associated socks have not been gblocked. As such, my question is whether there's a way to investigate further/conclusively link the two for the sake of extending the gblock, or if I should just file an SPI. I've asked AramilFeraxa for their input at Meta, but figured I'd ask here as well. The Kip (contribs) 04:12, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    In fact, after looking at the contributions of FireBreathMan, who was conclusively linked to Breath1Fire, I'm absolutely sure they're the same user as SelfStarter - they've used the same "Fine as it was" edit summary, and placed the exact same phrase on their user page. Pinging @Chipmunkdavis: and @Cutlass: as users who dealt with them at Commons. The Kip (contribs) 04:16, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi The Kip, I didn't get this ping. If there are recent edits, then SPI can use checkuser if there is a behavioural match. If there is no recent activity from a known sock and a suspected sock, then they can't be compared in such a way, so you would need strong behavioural evidence. CMD (talk) 11:09, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Suicide methods RfC

    [edit]

    Aplucas0703 (talk · contribs) has opened a request for comment on the Suicide methods page, re-opening a discussion from a year prior about whether a link should be added to the top of the page which links to the Meta list of mental health resources. Aaron's preferred hatnote looks like this, per an earlier revision of the page. Now, to be clear, I don't think any rules have been broken (hence why I posted this to WP:AN rather than WP:ANI.) However, I do believe this proposal would constitute a major reworking of "no disclaimers" policy. Therefore I am unsure whether a RfC on a relatively obscure talk page is the proper venue for such a discussion.

    I am requesting that an admin look over the proposal and decide whether it belongs there or should be moved elsewhere. wound theology◈ 06:36, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    There is probably a broader discussion to be had in regards to WP:TRIGGER as well. I can point to a lot of academic research that would disprove the claim A trauma trigger only exists in people who developed post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of actual psychological trauma. For example, moral injury presents similarly to PTSD, and involves trauma triggers, but the mechanisms of those triggers and interventions required to treat it are very different. Dfadden (talk) 08:42, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It won’t go anywhere. WP:SNOW is falling already and it just violates too many policies and guidelines. If they want to try and change the consensus on trigger warnings and suicide prevention resources they can go to village pump, where it will also fail. Dronebogus (talk) 10:50, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    On the general subject:
    It is always appropriate to have a discussion on an article's talk page, when the proposed change will only affect that one article. It is not the only possible place for the discussion, but it is an appropriate place.
    RFCs are an advertising mechanism. Here are the main ways that this RFC is being advertised:
    Additionally, editors are free to place manual invitations on related pages (such as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Death), so long as the venues and messages comply with the Wikipedia:Canvassing rules. Since the OP has expressed a very strong opinion in the RFC and is responsible for more than 20% of the comments posted in that section so far, I strongly suggest the use of the {{please see}} template if they choose to post any such notifications. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:36, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I have edited this post to correct the link. -- Least Action (talk) 10:07, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    RfC closure review: Talk:Erik Satie#Infobox RFC

    [edit]
    The closer has reverted their close. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:55, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    A recent RfC on whether to include an infobox was closed by user:Fortuna imperatrix mundi. This is problematic for multiple reasons: not only are they not a neutral party (Mozart, 2020 2023) in this contentious subject area, they also ignored a roughly 60%-to-40% supermajority to include the infobox, as well as the fact that several !oppose votes did not address the issue meaningfully or were posted by users with barely any contributions. Me, @Gerda Arendt:, and @Nemov: all expressed concern about this particular closure but have not received a response. I also reverted the closure, was reverted by User:ScottishFinnishRadish, and requested clarification; they told me to take it here. Dronebogus (talk) 10:37, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The closer has not edited since, and I would wait for a reply, and perhaps reconsideration. The close shows no indication of any evaluation of arguments. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:41, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It’s about the close, not them, though their behavior is still problematic. We’re not trying to sanction them so they don’t need to defend themself. The close can and should be undone without their input, which could take days or just never come. I’m not waiting for a reconsideration esp. since my personal experience with this user indicates they probably won’t budge. Dronebogus (talk) 10:46, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I am glad to prove you wrong, not that that's a particularly onerous exercise. I've reverted my close based on Gerda's reasonong (for the peanut gallery, it's been established that You're almost always needlessly aggressive, and your interjections there probably aren't going to help anything). Fortuna, Imperatrix Mundi 14:52, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Uninvolved editors (Erik Satie)

    [edit]
    • Overturn to include. There was a rough consensus to include, not a lack of consensus. Supporters stated reasons to include that are specific to the article, and most of those reasons were not successfully countered. Oppose comments are a bit more in the direction of opposing adding an infobox to an article on this type of subject, in addition to arguments like "this article didn't have an infobox since it was created many years go", "they want to add the infobox just for the sake of having an infobox", and "the vested contributors don't want an infobox" (paraphrasing from memory, phone).—Alalch E. 11:12, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      I only support an operative overturning to a different outcome (include), and oppose overturning to a non-determined outcome for another editor to close, i.e. vacating. If another closer is going to close the vacated RfC as "no consensus" based on their individual judgement, I am announcing my intent to challenge that close as the wrong recording of consensus. Given a "no consensus" close, I am much more in favor of the original Fortuna imperatrix mundi close, which I treat as a well intentioned attempt that should not be easily dismissed. —Alalch E. 13:29, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Overturn, new closer needed. I'm in rough agreement with Alalch E. that I'm not seeing 'no consensus'. By (very) rough vote count it looks like ~17 support an infobox, ~11 oppose, and by arguments, some opposers seemed to be objecting only to a particular version of the infobox but would support one that was more useful, and some opposers were not opposing for policy reasons. Valereee (talk) 13:03, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Overturn That RfC closure was far too scant and does not seem to have weighed the arguments in the slightest. I would suggest a different closer would likely be wise. Simonm223 (talk) 13:05, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Overturn, new closer, no explanation is unacceptable in this situation Feeglgeef (talk) 13:34, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Endorse result but needs new close Whilst I think the result is acceptable (there's so much IDONTLIKEIT, ILIKEIT, ITSUSEFUL and various other ATDs that I don't think anyone has made a convincing argument for whether it should be kept or deleted), closing it without explanation is not good enough here. Black Kite (talk) 14:23, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      This isn’t a deletion debate. Dronebogus (talk) 14:43, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      @Dronebogus: I was referring to the infobox, not the article. Black Kite (talk) 07:11, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Overturn to include per Alalch's analysis and my own review. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:32, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Involved editors (Erik Satie)

    [edit]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lokad

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    No need to keep this open any longer, comments very much appreciated. --Goldsztajn (talk) 20:56, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I've just closed as delete a contentious AfD which included participation from a number of persons directly linked to the company. Would appreciate a second or third set of eyes. Courtesy pings to admins who participated in the discussion for procedural reasons. @Hammersoft, Drmies, and Ponyo:. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 12:05, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Good close, clear consensus to delete, though DRV would have been the proper venue for this discussion. Toadspike [Talk] 12:27, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    A comment before mine rather similar in content was removed by its author – if this is indeed not the kind of feedback you're looking for, Goldsztajn, please make this clear. Toadspike [Talk] 12:32, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Toadspike - sort of a pre-emptive DRV, if you will. Am relatively comfortable defending the close, but at this point I just wanted to see how others might feel. Appreciate yours and the previous (now removed) comment. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 12:43, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a good, well-reasoned close. Thank you Goldsztajn. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:39, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm with Hammersoft: good close, and thank you Goldsztajn. That was a mess--and I'm not surprised to see Vermorel blocked and their CU-confirmed sock as well. I mean, such edits are blockable and I would have, had the editor not gotten so contentious. You know how it is: they yell at you and then they claim you're not neutral because you don't want to be yelled at. Anyway, thanks for taking care of that--to all involved. And I'm fine with this being here, since it's as much about the participants as it is about any discussion of content. Drmies (talk) 15:46, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm fine with this being here, too, as Goldsztajn was seeking a review from admins in particular, not a general review of the discussion closure from the community. The easy closes get taken care of pretty easily, thanks for taking on a complicated AFD, Goldsztajn. Your help is appreciated at AFDLand. Liz Read! Talk! 17:38, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Request to move sandbox draft to mainspace: Bruce Barber

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    The draft has been rejected, and I concur with Knowledgegatherer23 that this isn't the place to be requesting a review. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:02, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Hello administrators,

    I would like to request that my draft article currently located at User:Toyosikehinde22/sandbox be moved to the mainspace as "Bruce Barber".

    I believe it meets Wikipedia's notability and quality standards. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    Toyosikehinde22 (talk) 15:14, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    @Toyosikehinde22, your article is already waiting for review. The administrators noticeboard is not the place to request review. The process may take multiple months. Asking here will not speed up the request. Knowledgegatherer23 (Say Hello) 15:18, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Request name change-move

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    WRONG VENUE
    You can request a username change at WP:CHU/S or m:Special:GlobalRenameRequest. However, speaking as a global renamer, note that while this username technically complies with WP:NONSCRIPT, it might cause headaches down the line, and might get you blocked on some wikis with stricter script-based rules. So I'd encourage thinking this over before requesting. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 07:32, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    (𒌋*𓆏)𓆭 = Onemilliontree in archaic form. If it is possible to facilitate as I have to consider some numerical problems and the name v. is problematic - for example: multi-language knowledge allows thinking beyond the restrictions of one's own culture and past - would reduce the input into my consciousness then I could have less reinforcement from a specific language type - meaning. It could be a temporary change while I have influx of certain problems in articles. (𒌋*𓆏)𓆭 05:15, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Those are certainly words. But given the ruckus that Δ caused with their username, I don't think this is going to fly. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:23, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    You talk about multi-language knowledge but what languages do you actually know well enough that you can read and write or converse with someone about everyday matters and understand and be understood? The fact you left an edit summary in English on the French Wikipedia makes me think French isn't one of them. If the answer is that you only have such fluency with English, perhaps learning some other language would be a more productive way to get multi-language knowledge than trying to rename yourself to scripts from extinct writing systems. Nil Einne (talk) 06:48, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Question about edit requests and potential socks

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    Are there any issues completing or partially completing edit requests by IPs that may be socks?

    The issue was also discussed here: User_talk:Chipmunkdavis#Question_about_edit_request_and_sockpuppet_investigations

    Edit requests are pretty transparent, so I don't think there are any issues but just wanted to check here. Bogazicili (talk) 15:42, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The guidance in WP:PROXYING is that you must be able to show that the changes are productive and [you] have independent reasons for making such edits. Editors who reinstate edits made by a banned or blocked editor take complete responsibility for the content. So - essentially it's fine as long as you are using discretion and not blindly doing whatever a sock told you to. And it would be wise to approach such requests with a bit more scrutiny than usual. Spicy (talk) 15:50, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks! Glad I asked here. I had checked WP:Socking and WP:Canvass, but WP:Proxying is in Wikipedia:Banning policy.
    The edit request in question is just about images: Talk:Turkey#Extended-confirmed-protected_edit_request_on_4_March_2025. Bogazicili (talk) 16:03, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Report user: MarioTalevski

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    I would like to report User:MarioTalevski for repeatedly making biased edits on the Snow White (2025 film) article. Additionally, this user has a history of similar issues and has even deleted discussions from their talk page instead of addressing concerns. Their contributions do not appear to align with Wikipedia’s principles of neutrality and verifiability, as their edits seem to be driven by personal bias rather than objective sources. I kindly request that this matter be reviewed and addressed as soon as possible. Thank you! Selenne (talk) 05:02, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    You are required to provide WP:DIFFS as evidence to your accusations. Not doing so makes it more repetitive for spectators to participate, leading to delays in results. You are also required to alert the editor on their talk page. I've done so far you.
    MarioTalevski (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Tarlby (t) (c) 05:19, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The User:MarioTalevski, recently removed discussions from his talk page, where other users had also warned him about being reported if he continued adding content to Wikipedia against the rules. He has engaged in repeated instances of vandalism, as documented in these discussions, which he has now deleted. I only came across this account recently after noticing his biased edits on the Snow White (2025 film) article.Selenne (talk) 05:41, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    You still haven't provided any diffs. Nil Einne (talk) 06:00, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    From my quick look, this looks like a simple bright line WP:3RR violation which could have been reported to WP:ANEW if someone had actually notified them of our edit warring policy. Nil Einne (talk) 06:11, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    He removed content from his Talk page:
    [83]
    I reverted the removal:[84] but he undid my revert:[85]
    Additionally, he has been repeatedly reverting edits on the Snow White (2025 film) page:[86][87][88][89][90][91] Selenne (talk) 06:19, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) Anyway I've given them a 3RR warning now although I'm not getting involved in the edit war so their version currently stands. I'd note other than the lack of an edit warring notification, editors have incorrectly tried to preserve the other warnings and comments on their talk page in violation of WP:OWNTALK so there might be a degree of blind leading the blind here. Nil Einne (talk) 06:21, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I reverted their edit as "unexplained content removal". Looks like several editors have objected to their removal of the content, and MarioTalevski has, so far, refused to explain why they are removing it. And please stop fretting about them removing notices from their talk page, it is understood that when an editor removes notices from their talk page, it is an acknowledgement that they are aware of it. Isaidnoway (talk) 07:32, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I also meant to add that Wikipedia:Vandalism has a very specific meaning, so please be careful about slinging that accusation around, especially if you're not providing diffs to document the allegation of vandalism. Isaidnoway (talk) 07:40, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Report user: Ieithyddnewydd

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    User:Ieithyddnewydd is editing in languages he has no clue about. His edits of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mingrelian_grammar are wrong. He doesn't understand standard Kartvelological transliteration and spelled ǯveş- "old" as წვეშ- instead of ჯვეშ-. Then he took Hewitt's paper about Kinship lexicon without understanding Hewitt's transliteration scheme so now we have such wonderful inventions like "ბიჲია biyia" that is supposed to men uncle (instead of ბიძია biʒia!).

    I also note that he's edited Bats page but he clearly doesn't understand Georgian alphabet. Here are the offending diffs: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mingrelian_grammar&diff=prev&oldid=1264085903 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mingrelian_grammar&diff=prev&oldid=1264102296 212.58.114.225 (talk) 07:41, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The reporting IP has been blocked as an open proxy. The reported user was not notified on their user talk page. The edits were at least a month ago. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:27, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It would still be nice to know if the complaints had any truth to them. Anyone know Mingrelian or Georgian? Liz Read! Talk! 16:49, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with concern about the accuracy of the article even though the edits are old. However, the last edits to the page are from OP, so it looks like the article now incorporates OP's concerns. From OP's editing history, I'm inclined to believe that OP knows the topic but is curmudgeonly.
    In short, I recommend shelving the complaint as stale and leaving the article at its current state.
    Ieithyddnewydd has edited other language pages, but none since February 6, so I'd leave those to others editing those pages to identify and fix. This is a chronic problem with niche pages: hard to know when they're right or wrong, but that's how Wikipedia is: Wikipedia:General disclaimer. I did drop Ieithyddnewydd a permalink to this discussion so they can see the concerns. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:37, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Various ongoing errors with my account

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    RESOLVED-ISH
    Please see phab:T390512 for updates. (But please don't comment just to say you're experiencing the bug.) -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 03:48, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Howdy all,

    This is The Kip commenting from an IP (I'm happy to do things to help confirm that). When attempting to edit a page a few minutes ago after filing an SPI, I got hit with a Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data error, and it recommends I log out and back in. However, I then can't log out, as that causes an Invalid CSRF token error.

    I switched to a different browser, which showed me logged out - when I tried logging back in, I then got hit with There seems to be a problem with your login session; this action has been canceled as a precaution against session hijacking. Please resubmit the form. You may receive this message if you are blocking cookies.

    Anyone know how to fix all this? For the moment I'm locked out of my account. 2600:4040:2306:BE00:75EB:3720:3FB6:28F (talk) 03:17, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi! This is WFUM (Wildfireupdateman) commenting from an IP. It appears this issue is being discussed on Phabricator (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T390512) and according to AntiComp there's an SRE on the case. 76.133.89.169 (talk) 03:19, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks! I cleared my cookies, believing that to be the issue, but it didn't solve anything - happy to know it's a sitewide thing rather than an issue unique to my account. 2600:4040:2306:BE00:75EB:3720:3FB6:28F (talk) 03:23, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    There has been an uptick in routine errors lately. I got some database errors earlier today. Neither of y'all's accounts is blocked or locked, so I'm afraid there isn't anything admins will be able to help with till this is resolved sysadmin-side. Sorry.
    ... Okay I typed that message up and then got a CSRF error too. Well, hi! It's Tamzin. Hopefully this passes soon... 2601:80:4884:7100:31A6:6F63:2739:5325 (talk) 03:25, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi, this is thetree284, it happened to me too. When I try to log in to my account, It won't let me because of this. 2001:569:7C59:1E00:D4E8:F146:BB0F:E120 (talk) 03:32, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi, it's PhilKnight - same with me. 2A00:23C6:53C3:4601:F620:8C6F:AF04:C92C (talk) 03:33, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Accounts are showing up in RecentChanges again. For anyone still seeing csrf errors, just hold tight I guess. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 03:38, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yup, my account is operating again. The Kip (contribs) 03:45, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Hey guys, I'm back and it seems I can log in now! thetree284 (talk and edits) 03:45, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    close page move

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    can we close this page move as per WP:SNOW

    Talk:Gaza genocide#Requested move 28 March 2025 Cinaroot (talk) 04:21, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The editor also also changed the RM after many people has participated which is also not appropriate. Cinaroot (talk) 04:22, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It doesn't look like WP:SNOWBALL applies to this discussion as there are some participants who are supporting this RM change. If the RM proposal has changed, please provide diffs that demonstrate this change so editors can see the nature of any change to the proposal. Liz Read! Talk! 18:24, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    maybe u r right. its unlikely to pass though. i'll circle back as soon as min. amount of time is passed. the topic is extensively debated several times in the past. i think the discussion should not be entertained min. of 6 months after this Cinaroot (talk) 21:56, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Request for access to a deleted page – “Bolesław II the Bold's expedition to Kiev (1076–1077)”

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    Hello, I would like to request access to the deleted article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boles%C5%82aw_II_the_Bold's_expedition_to_Kiev_(1076%E2%80%931077). I noticed that the page no longer exists, but I am interested in its previous content for research purposes. If possible, I would appreciate restoring a draft version or providing the article’s text. Thank you in advance for your help! Fajowy (talk) 06:59, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    @Fajowy: Please enable email, I can send you the text. Lectonar (talk) 11:10, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    ok I did it thanks again @Lectonar Fajowy (talk) 17:54, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Improper removal of Wiley academic source from "Markov chain" article — possible coordinated abuse

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    WP:FORUMSHOPPING. OP now indef'd after ANI. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:28, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    Content dispute, failure to notify other users, personal attacks.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:32, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Hello,

    I’m reporting improper and persistent removal of a sourced, academically published reference from the Markov chain article.

    The citation is from a peer-reviewed academic book, published by Wiley, one of the world’s top scientific publishers:

    📘 Markov Chains: From Theory to Implementation and Experimentation (2017)

    https://www.wiley.com/en-it/Markov+Chains%3A+From+Theory+to+Implementation+and+Experimentation-p-9781119387558

    Despite the source being policy-compliant under WP:RS and WP:V, it was removed by user [[User:Malparti]] with the summary:

    "Gagniuc is not an acceptable source, this has been discussed in detail"

    No discussion was linked. No page or policy was cited to justify the deletion. The removal was followed by further reverts by other users, including [[User:JayBeeEll]], but none restored the sourced content. The citation remains deleted.

    Moreover, Malparti appears to be from Romania, as is the author of the source — raising serious concerns about possible conflict of interest or personal bias.

    I anticipate that the term “self-promotion” will be raised — preemptively, I’d like to clarify:

    • I am not the author of the source.
    • The book is peer-reviewed, published by Wiley, and directly relevant to the topic of Markov chains.
    • Adding a neutral citation from a scientific publisher does not fall under self-promotion by any Wikipedia standard (WP:SELFPUB, WP:COI).

    I have seen similar patterns over time — multiple users taking turns to enforce the same exclusion, using similar rationales. This raises concerns of sockpuppetry or coordinated editorial bias, and I may file an SPI if this continues.

    I respectfully request:

    1. Review of whether the removal of the Wiley source was valid.
    2. Restoration of the citation if found compliant (as it clearly is).
    3. Administrative attention to the pattern of exclusion and possible collaboration.

    Thank you. EricoLivingstone (talk) 10:53, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    a) Content dispute: resolve it on the talk page. b) Here is what I assume is the previous discussion on the source; not exactly hard to find, as it is one of only four topics on said talk page. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 11:04, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    IBAN Appeal

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    On February 8, I was WP:IBANned from User:Engage01 for the reasons listed here.

    Whereas, Engage01 has been account blocked indefinitely for the reasons set forth here, the interaction ban is moot.

    I had posted this discussion on WP:ANI in error. One Admin recommended keeping it there, otherwise I would have moved it here sooner.

    This is not an urgent matter.

    Several community members at ANI mentioned that an "Indef" doesn't mean permant. I believe this argument is insufficient, and also that the IBAN was unjustified to begin with, but since I am banned from making reference to the other party, I am limited in what I am able to say to defend this position. Is there a way to discuss this with an ininvolved administrator through private messages? Is someone here able to authorize me to make references without violating the IBAN? If not, WP:AP says the The Arbitration Committee has the duty and responsibily To resolve matters unsuitable for public discussion for privacy, legal, or similar reason. Perhaps I should go there.

    I would be happy to WP:DROPTHESTICK, but so far the only reason given why I should do this is "or else." With respect, that's just not civil. Thank you in advance for any guidance you can give. Kire1975 (talk) 11:39, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    • Comment I closed Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Appeal_Interaction_Ban so the discussion can be centralized here. In the future, Kire, you can simply move the discussion so all of the comments are in one place. Noting too @Nil Enne's: comment that I erred in my advice to Kire. Apologies and making it more clear here. Kire, I think where you're confused here is that there is no need to relitigate the original IBan, and in fact doing so is not going to work in your favor. The administrator who closes your appeal will read the prior discussion and this/ANI and make a determination based on that. It is up to you to to make a clear case why the IBAN is no longer needed. If you don't feel you can do that within the limitations described at WP:BANEX, feel free to email ArbComm and note that you have done so. But it should not be needed because you're appealing your IBAN, and should be mindful of WP:NOTTHEM in your appeal. Star Mississippi 12:40, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Another question is about notice. I already posted an ANI notice on the blocked user I've been banned from interacting with because I mistakenly posted it on ANI. The rules of this subreddit noticeboard are that I "must" do so again with an AN notice. Since I am already banned from interacting with them, I don't want to appear like I'm tagging them unneccesarily. Please direct me on the best course of action. Kire1975 (talk) 12:33, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I have updated your notification. Your not doing so should not be held against you by the closing admin as I believe it was the right non action given the IBan. Referring to this as a subreddit clarifies some of your multiple postings during the initial discussion, @Kire1975. While (some) subreddits do allow reposting, Wikipedia generally does not. Please try to remember that different sites have different norms and policies. Star Mississippi 12:45, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Even if it doesn't work in my favor, I would like to know the reason for the ban so that it does not occur again. I think other community members deserve to know too, especially those of us who followed WP:AVOIDEDITWAR in good faith. Context. Kire1975 (talk) 13:04, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I think The Bushranger's support !vote in the IBan thread sums it up well, along with Star's original support for the two-way IBan. Engage01 removed some tags and then you put them back in. Voorts also chimed in with their own perspective too. If those reasons are not satisfactory, then as Star pointed out, you can go to ArbComm. Conyo14 (talk) 15:45, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you referring to The Bushranger's support edit made on 07:13, 6 February 2025 (UTC)? Kire1975 (talk) 16:07, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes Conyo14 (talk) 16:49, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for pointing out my error. I meant to say noticeboard, and I have edited it. What repostings are you referring to exactly and which rule? I only intended to post once today. Kire1975 (talk) 13:20, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The IBAN is not moot. Indefinite does not mean forever. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:10, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • To make it more obvious, the IBan was imposed after the discussion here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1179#User:Engage01: 2nd ANI notice. Liz Read! Talk! 17:56, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      • As pointed out on ANI, the fact the iban was imposed by community consensus means it cannot be evaluated or overturned by an administrator, uninvolved, involved, or anything else. It can only be overturned by the community. As I mentioned there Kire1975 needs to drop the stick, immediately. Saying I would like to know the reason for the ban - which they have done repeatedly there and now here - is extremely concerning as the reasons for the ban were made clear in the original thread, and the fact they still either cannot or will not comprehend this implies either chronic WP:IDHT or that this is a WP:CIR issue. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:26, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • You were IBANed because your interactions with Engage01 were toxic, combative, and wasting other editors' time. The community decided that they didn't want to deal with the disruption, and imposed an IBAN. Indefs are not infinite, Engage may be unblocked, and the IBAN will be necessary then. You will only be successful in appealing your IBAN if you can prove that you understand why it is necessary and explain why it needs to be lifted, and wait at least six months from now (preferably much longer) before appealing it again. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:53, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    AI Images

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    Already listed at CR. Someone will get to closing this massive discussion when they get to it. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:46, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    There was a RFC recently at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/AI images#Relist with broader question: Ban all AI images? (!vote here). Starting on February 28, there was a discussion about banning AI-generated images from all Wikipedia articles (there was an earlier discussion, already closed, about doing so in BLP and medical articles). The RFC template has already been removed by Legobot, but an admin should give a proper closure to the whole thing. Cambalachero (talk) 15:20, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    RHaworth

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    Since I didn't see it posted anywhere but saw the tags drop on his user pages, I thought some of the old hats around here might like to know that Roger Haworth (User:RHaworth) has passed away, some time ago actually. Graham87 has added a short memorial to the deceased Wikipedians page. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:22, 31 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&oldid=1283419829"