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Distinction between allied countries and exile governments of ex-neutrals

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Ruhrjung: I don't understand your distinction between Allies and Governments in Exile. The Dutch, Belgian, Norwegian and Polish nations all fought on the Allied side before they were conquered; for that period they fought not as governments in exile, but as free nations. The same is true of the period between their liberation and the end of the war. Yugoslavia did exactly the same, yet you've not listed it as government in exile. Likewise France. I assume your omission of Poland is just an error.

I'm also puzzled by your inclusion of Brazil. My knowledge is far from comprehensive, but I've yet to hear of an incident where Brazilian troops fought alongside the other allies. I'm also puzzled as to why Newfoundland is included, but not all the many other British colonies. Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa all made separate declarations of war. Newfoundland automatically entered the war when Britian did (like India and the other colonies - see www.gov.nf.ca/royalcomm/research/ pdf/bakerchronology.pdf )

Incidentally, has anyone any idea what is meant by 'moral support' allies? What did they do to get this status? DJ Clayworth 14:03, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Regarding "minor allies" in South-America and so on, I've neither expertice nor interest. Don't take me wrong, but for me personally, what counts is whos blood, lifes and homes were lost due to the war. Hence I just don't touch paragraphs on for instance Brazil. I hope that someone else, with more of interest and knowledge, can straighten out such issues.

The country of Poland, and after its occupation the Polish nation, fought on the side of the Allies. There was sort of a formal alliance, i.e. guarantees from France and Britain for the independence of Poland. That's out of question. (This was before the Soviet Union became an allied, of course!)

Regarding Norway, Belgium, Holland and Denmark, I propose you explain how and when they joined the alliance with The Allies.

Best regards!
--Ruhrjung 17:28, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)


OK Ruhrjung, I'm going to explain as well as possible in a short space. Does this mean you have no objection to me removing the distinction between government in exile and other allies? DJ Clayworth 17:40, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

After you convincingly have indicated how these countries were allied before being invaded, I would have absolutely no objection. (I am, however, very curious as to why this be important to you.)
--Ruhrjung 17:48, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Clayworth!
May I ask where the explanation comes?
Now it's half an hour since you made the change. ;->>
--Ruhrjung 18:38, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)


I didn't say they were allied before being invaded.

- No, you give the impression that they became allied at the very same day as they were invaded. Do you have any source for this?--Ruhrjung 21:40, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg were all neutral up to the point they were invaded. After that they fought on the Allied side, in their homelands until they were conquered and inexile after that. Are you suggesting we separate out countries that were invaded from those that declared war before they were invaded? DJ Clayworth 20:27, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yes. There is a huge and important difference between coming in war 1/ by being an invaded neutral country and 2/ as the consequence of an alliance with an attacked government. Fighting for the defence and recapture of one's homeland is quite another thing than waging a war as a party of an alliance.

Further, you must concider that the occupied countries weren't free to ally themselves without the occupant's agreement, why it's rather confusing to call "Holland" an ally of the Allied before it was liberated in 1944/45. How did these countries "fight on the allied side"? When did they start? When did they end? The invasion of the Benelux countries was a swift one, the subsequent occupation was however a lengthy affair, during which it's hardly meaningful to say that "the occupied countries fought on the side of the Allied" - let alone that they "were" allied. Wasn't it in reality the exiled governments, and (not to forget!) numerous exiled individuals, who were free to attach themselves to the Allies' cause, and who after the respective attacks saw reasons to do so — reasons which they hadn't acknowledged before being attacked?

Finally, I must say that your dates for France's and Britain's alliance surprices me. What source supports your notion? I don't know if you are wrong - I've not memorized anything similar. It's of course thinkable that the French and British governments allied first after the war had started, but it doesn't fit with anything I've heard of before. Please consider that this article is about Allies - not about their entry into wars.
--Ruhrjung 21:40, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)


What defines the becoming of an Allied?

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The dates I'm giving are for the country's entry to the war. Hitler invaded Poland on September 1st 1939, and Britain and France gave Hitler a 2 day deadline to withdraw. When he didn't, Britain and France were automatically at war with Germany, on September 3rd.

The reason I'm against making a distinction between 'governments in exile' and others is just that it's not clear cut. After all, if the government is still at war, and many of the people are still fighting, both inside and outside the country, how is that different from the country being at war? Some of the occupied countries, particularly Poland, made enormous contributions to the war while their country was still occupied. Holland, for example, had colonies that Germany did not invade, but which still considered themselves at war after the occupation. If you really think its important to make the distinction please do so, but please don't just revert my edit - I did other things than just remove the exile distinction. DJ Clayworth 13:24, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Dear Clayworth, Your contribution raises several important and interesting questions. I do however chose, for the moment, to concentrate on the most confusing issue: Who was an Allied, and what defines the becoming of an Allied? From the above, one could draw the conclusion that the Allied weren't allied, but merely in war on the same side as Britain. Is this a correct understanding of your view? If so, is this an established opinion in, say, the Anglo-Saxon world?
--Ruhrjung 21:38, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)


I include in the WWII Allies anyone who fought against Germany, Japan or Italy. I think that's what most people would say, Anglo-Saxon world or otherwise. I'm not sure what the difference is between begin 'Allied' and 'merely in the war'. DJ Clayworth 13:34, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)


Well... the difference betweeen Allied and "merely in the war" is rather obvious, as the latter category includes all parties in the war, although the Axis powers surely can't be included among the Allied.

Please note the definition in the first sentense of the article: "The Allies" denotes the members of the alliances directed against [...] the Axis powers in World War II.

As for the difference between Allied and co-belligerents, I'm also sure the question is unneccessary.

Remains: countries which were neutral until being invaded during the war. With your definition of "Allies", an interesting question arises with countries which were invaded by both sides, or consecutively by one side after the other. Did the latter passively switch back and forth between being "Allies" and "liberated"?
--Ruhrjung 14:36, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)


Ruhrjung, I'm starting to be very confused about what you are suggesting. Why not give an example of who is Allied and who is co-belligerent, or any other classifications you have in mind? DJ Clayworth 14:57, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I wonder if it wouldn't be according to most people's understanding to regard only those countries as "Allied" whos sovereign governments had entered into an alliance with Britain (and France and Poland) against Germany and her allies.

Before being attacked most European countries (and the US) aimed at neutrality. Countries as Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium, and Switzerland belonged here. To my best knowledge, they didn't enter any alliance before their neutrality was broken by the invading Wehrmacht. The situation for Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania is somewhat different, and for Hungary, and Romania even more different, but as you haven't proposed them being listed as "Allied" that doesn't matter.

I suggest:

Major Allies
(later: permanent members of the UN Security Council)

Minor Allies

--Ruhrjung 15:29, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

OK, I see where you are coming from, but I think it has more problems. As I said before, most of these countries were in the fight before they were governments in exile. Norway, Holland, Belgium, Greece all defended their countries in the usual way, and only became governments in exile after they were conquered. In the case of Greece it was many months before they were occupied. I'm not even sure that Yugoslavia ever had a government in exile. Why is it important to you to make this distinction? DJ Clayworth 16:00, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Where I'm coming from is of course relevant as my mother tongue is not English, and my input from other foreign languages (in my case: French, Dutch and Scandinavian) might make me raise questions that seem strange for people totally embedded in an Anglo-Saxon sphere, but beside that, I hope also people coming from where I come from ought to be entitled to contribute to the wikipedia project.

At the moment, as I've stated before, I concentrate on the issue of what defines the becoming of an Allied? The list above was only given on your request for examples.

The difference between an allied exiled government and an allied country whos government is in control of the country's territory, administration, army and other assets is well worth considering, but think I'll leave that for later, trying to focus one issue at a time.

So, to start with: When did Poland become an Allied? When France? When Britain?
--Ruhrjung 16:20, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)


As I said above, I would consider the Allies to include any country that fought against the Axis powers. I believe that that is how the term is usually used in a WWII context; most people don't worry about who signed treaties with who.

I agree pretty much with your list above; separating out the governments in exile is the only thing I disagree with, which is why I started talking about it. I think that except for that difference there is hardly any difference between the list you gave and the one currently in the article.

I guess it also might be important to mention that in general English usage you don't have to have a formal treaty to be an ally - to fight alongside someone is enough. DJ Clayworth 16:55, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Just to add an answer to one of your questions, I would consider that Britian, France and Poland became allies either in August 1939, when Britain and France declared their support, or September 3rd when they actually declared war. It depends on whether you consider the intention or the action makes someone an ally. DJ Clayworth 16:59, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think what Ruhrjung is looking for is formal documents of alliances signed by both countries, sort-of-thingy. Of which I am sure there are many but are they the most important thing? (Britain had an alliance with Romania ntil Romania joined the Germans). Rmhermen 17:04, Sep 30, 2003 (UTC)

You see: Here you have at least one root to our different understanding. Can you please explain to me who don't understand why they didn't become Allies on April 6th, 1939?
--Ruhrjung 17:12, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The dates I put in the article were for entry into the war, and not meant to imply that there was no treaty of alliance before then. Some of the former Empire countries had had alliances going back many years. I just thought it would be helpful to add dates of entry into the war. DJ Clayworth 17:29, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

But isn't this an article about The Allies?

Why is the dates of entry into war at all relevant?

Why only for WWII, and not for WWI?

Why in this article? Why not in List of countries involved in World War II — or in the very article on WWII?

Oughtn't it (in this article) be more relevant when they became Allies than when they were assaulted or declared war?

--Ruhrjung 16:00, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Part of the problem here is that the term Allies (capital A) is not used in a technical sense of those who are allied. The Central Powers and Axis were also technical allies; however, that term is not used to describe them. It is used (as Allies) to describe their opponents and generally in the generic sense of all who opposed them. In addition, it is usually used in a strict dichotomy of them vs. us, with no account taken of the nuances of those few countries that changed sides or participated in concurrent wars. I think that the dates can be left in the more detailed List of countries involved in World War II. I wouldn't mind if this list was trimmed to the usual Soviet Union, Great Britain and Commonwealth (except Ireland), USA, China and France. Rmhermen 16:48, Oct 1, 2003 (UTC)
The important thing must be that the actual usage is reflected in the article. Preferably the contemporary usage in the English speaking world.--Ruhrjung 16:52, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
If you look at the top of the article you will find that this difference is exactly explained. Since the article is about Allies and not allies I think the list of countries is completely appropriate. If you really feel strongly about it remove the dates, but I still think they are helpful. The article does explain what the dates mean.
But not why they are at all relevant.--Ruhrjung 16:52, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I do disagree with reducing the list. If I was Polish I would be very upset not to have Poland included in the Allies. DJ Clayworth 17:28, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)


Ruhrjung, the current article does reflect the current English usage. For most people the date they started fighting is the date they really becaome Allies. DJ Clayworth 20:05, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Clayworth, if so, why not state that in the article? At the moment it defines:

Allies [with capital A] usually denotes the members of the alliances directed against [...] the Axis powers in World War II. (my emphasizing)

--Ruhrjung 13:19, 10 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Youre right, and I've made a change to reflect this. DJ Clayworth 14:22, 10 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I don't want to downplay the part played by Canadians in WWII, which was immense, but the usualy usage for the 'major allies' includes the big five, but no others. This was pretty much decided when allocating seats at the peace conferences, and on the UN later. The distinction was really on political grounds rather then contribution to the war, but that's the way it is. Putting anything else here would, I believe, be confusing. DJ Clayworth 17:13, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Molotov-Ribbentrop pact no peace treaty

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I changed the following less lucky wording, calling the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact a peace agreement. In reality it was presented as a non-aggression treaty, though the content of the secret amendment made Nazi-Germany and the Soviet Union practically to allies in their common assault on Poland, Balticum and Finland.

  • Soviet Union (from 22 June 1941 - before that a peace agreement was signed and adopted with the Axis)

--Ruhrjung 18:53, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Czechoslovakia

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Hi Ruhrjung. I added Czechoslovakia back in because, as far as I can tell, although it was indeed dismembered by Hitler at the start of the war, a government in exile was formed and continued to fight on the Allied side to the best of its ability. Shouldn't they be considered Allies as much as Belgium?

See:

DJ Clayworth 14:30, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, isn't this virtually a reprise of the discussion above (Sept 17...)? I do not have any other or more arguments than then. For a country to ally with another country, I think the government must be at least in control of the territory, and maybe also legitimately representative. The governments in exile didn't control their claimed territories, and hence were not recognizable as representatives of the countries in question - which leads to my view that the resistance movements and the governments in exile might well be counted as Allied, but the occupied countries not. In particular not those countries that stubbornly claimed a wish to remain neutral, i.e. non-allied, or Czechoslovakia, which had been dissolved largely due to Chamberlain's Munich accord.

The notion of these countries (contrary to governments in exile) as "Allied" shines in my eyes as extremely easy to establish as false. For any reader. You don't need to have studied history for many grades to know that much. It gives a very careless impression, which reflects badly on all of the wikipedia articles, to let such statements remain un-corrected.

Above you define Allies as "any country that fought against the Axis powers". May I guess, that according to your understanding Denmark was occupied without fighting, and hence doesn't qualify? Maybe you argue that the Czechs fought more after the the German arrival than the Danes? That inconsistency, or that with the other countries shared between Stalin and Hitler according to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, is no real problem for me. My problem is with those countries that were neutral or already finished at their invasion. I agree with you, that I if I were Polish, I would be very upset if Poland, who actually had concluded a formal alliance with France and Britain, would be forgotten in a list of WWII Allies.

May I propose that the initial paragraph be worded as follows? (Largely following your and rmhermen's wordings.)

In general, allies are people or groups that have joined an alliance. In general English usage, a formal treaty is not required for being perceived as an ally - co-belligerence, to fight alongside someone, is enough. According to this usage, you become allies not when concluding an alliance treaty but when struck by war.
When spelt with a capital A, Allies usually denotes the countries that fought together against the Central Powers in World War I and against the Axis powers in World War II. The term is generally used in the generic sense of "all who opposed the enemy". In addition, it is usually used in a strict dichotomy of them vs. us, reflecting wartime propaganda, with no account taken of nuances of countries that were occupied as neutrals, changed sides or participated in concurrent wars.

Further, I think the section on "Minor allies" maybe better could be worded as follows:

Minor Allies
British, Dutch and French colonies fought alongside their mother countries.
Most countries occupied by Nazi Germany continued to fight with resistance movements under governments in exile:
  • Belgium (invaded May 10, 1940)
  • Greece (invaded October 28, 1940)
  • Holland (invaded May 10, 1940)
  • Luxembourg (invaded May 10, 1940)
  • Norway (invaded April 9, 1940)
  • Poland (invaded 1 September 1939)
  • Yugoslavia (invaded April 6, 1941)
Furthermore, most countries of the Brittish Commonwealth were considered as Minor allies, notably:
  • Australia
  • Canada
  • New Zealand
  • South Africa

--Ruhrjung 05:12, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)


I take your point (and I wasn't aware that the Czech government in exile wasn't just the previous government relocated). My feeling is that most people coming to this page will expect to find mentioned all the countries that fought against the Axis. Maybe the special circumstances of each country need a line or so of explanation.

DJ Clayworth 14:25, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

India

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It's always controversial about which members of the British Commonwealth are added to this list. For a long time now we've kept only the Dominions, i.e. those that declared war independently (Australia, Canada, New Zeland, South Africa). Nobody wants to deny that India played a large part in the war, but the question then becomes "where do we stop?". Should we list each one of the British Colonies separately? There are lots of them. What about the French colonies? I'd prefer to see us list only the four Dominions. What do other people think? DJ Clayworth 19:21, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

India was a dominion in 1939. The British declaration of war did not automatically bring India into the fighting. However, the Viceroy declared war on behalf of India without consulting other members of the Indian Government. David Newton 14:21, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

British Commonwealth

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The other question that gets raised here is how many countries of the British (and indeed French) Empire/Commonwealth to include as minor Allies. Usual policy is to include the Dominions (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa) in WOrld War II because they had enough autonomy to declare war on their own behalf. The others, such as India, came into WWII automatically when Britian did (correct me if I am wrong here). The trouble with including all the British non-dominions is that there are dozens of them. Should India be included but not Kenya? We have to draw the line somewhere. DJ Clayworth 16:57, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I removed India from the list of British Colonies mentioned explicitly, for the above reasons.

I WWI I believe the Empire came into the war as one, though I am prepared to be corrected. DJ Clayworth 14:37, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe there would have been any solid legal/constitutional objections if a Dominion government had decided not to go to war in 1914 (as e.g. the Irish Free State did in 1939); I think the involvement of the Dominions was simply a reflection of an overwhelming empathy with Britain by the populations of the Dominions. As I recall, something like 20-25% of the Australian soldiers in WW1 had been born in Britain. I think it was a common assumption in 1914 that a declaration of war automatically included the Dominions, but it is not necessarily an absolute fact that it did. Grant65 (Talk) 23:24, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

Portugal

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Portugal was a minor ally in WW1

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